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Mountain Flying Malarky

Zorg wrote:

To my knowledge, it’s not (yet) possible to put a French “qualification montagne” on a CAA-issued EASA license, as the French DGAC has not yet produced the corresponding conversion report and were not able to give an outlook for its completion

I asked DGAC about this last October, and they replied:

La qualification montagne roues n’est pour l’instant pas convertible sur votre licence anglaise car il n’existe pas de rapport de conversion.

Voici la réponse habituellement faite aux pilotes dans votre cas :

According to DGAC-France OPT-OUT planning, this qualification will be PART/FCL on 8th of april 2018.
DGAC-France is currently processing establishment of the conversion report with EASA.

Si vous aviez une licence PART FCL française, la qualification montagne roues serait mentionnée sur l’annexe à cette licence, car c’est une qualification nationale

Glenswinton, SW Scotland, United Kingdom

Amateur translation, not guaranteed nor certified:

The qualification “mountains, wheeled plane” can currently not be converted onto your English License for lack of a conversion report.

Below is the usual response to pilots in your situation:

According to DGAC-France OPT-OUT planning, this qualification will be PART/FCL on 8th of april 2018.
DGAC-France is currently processing establishment of the conversion report with EASA.

In case you were holding a French “Part FCL” license, the qualification “mountains, wheeled plane” would be mentioned on the annex to it, the qualification being country-specific.

Last Edited by at 01 Feb 20:19
EBZH Kiewit, Belgium

Jacko wrote:

I asked DGAC about this last October, and they replied:

For completeness’ sake, here’s the reply I obtained a few weeks back by the DGAC (DSAC Centre-Est
Bureau des Licences). It says pretty much the same as yours (although you additionally have the interesting 2018 date part).

La qualification montagne relève toujours de la règlementation nationale française. Le rapport de conversion de la qualification nationale en qualification EASA n’est pas encore paru. Vous ne pouvez donc pas encore faire apposer cette qualification sur sa licence.

Non nous ne savons pas quand le rapport sera prêt. C’est en négociation entre l’EASA et la DGAC. Pour l’instant aucun ATO français n’est homologué pour la formation à la qualification montagne EASA.

For all with British CAA-issued licenses, here’s a response from licensing on the conversion / recognition of national mountain ratings:

If you wish to apply on the basis of exercising mountain rating privileges on a non UK licence, issued by another EASA member state you will have to meet the conversion requirements for that State.
The UK CAA will accept a letter from that competent authority confirming that if the pilot applied to them they would issue a mountain rating and what remarks and privileges would be annotated. This would not form part of the conversion of privileges exercised on a UK National/JAR-FCL licence.

Now, both Jacko’s and my email reponses from DGAC suggest the DGAC is unable to provide such a letter. I’m anecdotally aware, however, of “people on the internet” claiming success with that route.

What might be a better bet at the moment, if one is determined to obtain the EASA MOU rating, is the Swiss route, see my following posting.

Last Edited by Zorg at 01 Feb 22:42
LFHN, LSGP, LFHM

I have a site license for Courchevel and for Saint Tropez La Mole. I have experience with both the Aeroclub 3 Vallees (Alex Combe, www.aeroclub3vallees.com/) as well as with Aerosavoie (see: http://www.aerosavoie.com/en/). I am working on my mountain rating for wheels and hope to complete it in September this year. If you have any questions, don’t hesitate to contact me.

EDLE, Netherlands

If you’re determined to obtain the EASA MOU rating now, then the Swiss route might be a solution. Switzerland has already converted their schools to EASA ATOs, and many of them offer mountain flying training (often on 160-180 hp SuperCubs).

It therefore seems that completing a mountain flying course with a Swiss ATO would allow a pilot with a British CAA-issued license to obtain the coveted letter by Swiss FOCA (see my previous posting) and thus obtain the EASA MOU rating on his EASA license. (With a FOCA-issued EASA license the whole thing would be quite trivial.) I don’t know whether this route is also viable for somebody getting a French “qualification montagne” recognised in Switzerland (with a check flight, see below) — I reckon probably not.

A big part of the training for the wheels license necessarily takes place in the French Alps, as there’s only a single landing field for skis (Croix de Coeur, close to Verbier). Not only that, if not done completely in France, the skills test requires customs on both sides (Switzerland and France), and the same on the way back! Training for the skis license can be fully carried out in Switzerland, as there’s a good number of permitted glacier landing fields. The licensing office of the Swiss CAA (FOCA) is a pleasure to deal with and has competent people, good availability for questions (by email, phone, or letter), and very quick administrative turnaround times.

The paragraph in Swiss aviation law regulating the recognition of national mountain ratings (such as the French “qualification montagne”) may be found here:

Träger ausländischer Ausweise für Landungen im Gebirge dürfen solche Landungen in der Schweiz erst ausführen, nachdem ihre Eignung einem schweizerischen Motorfluglehrer, der Piloten in der Gebirgslandetechnik ausbilden darf, geprüft worden ist. Zwischenstaatliche Vereinbarungen bleiben vorbehalten.

It (roughly) states that a pilot with a non-Swiss mountain rating requires a check flight with a Swiss mountain flying instructor to be able. Special recognition agreements with other countries might exist (I’m not aware of any, particularly not with France).

A Swiss mountain flying instructor may thus conduct the check flight for recognition of a French “qualification montagne” in Switzerland. In practice I’m told that the check flight amounts to the full skills test, and usually a mountain flying examiner is going to give it.

Last Edited by Zorg at 01 Feb 22:51
LFHN, LSGP, LFHM

I tried, but the UK CAA won’t budge without the conversion report.

Switzerland is a nice idea, but a plate of filets de perche triples in price crossing the lake between Thonon and Ouchy, so this poor farmer has to keep his hands in his pockets when visiting the land which has an SG 550 guarding the cuckoo clocks and chocolate in every home

I guess that April 2018 will do just as well as any other month, if we’re spared…

Glenswinton, SW Scotland, United Kingdom

Jacko wrote:

I tried, but the UK CAA won’t budge without the conversion report.

I wonder how some guys managed to get the French rating recognised by the CAA (if you also read that on another aviation site) — if that’s what actually happened.

I guess that April 2018 will do just as well as any other month, if we’re spared…

Yep, I also don’t see a reason to rush for the EASA MOU rating. Doesn’t really have any practical implications to go with the national ratings.

Anybody here that knows anything about mountain flying in the Alps outside of France and Switzerland?

Last Edited by Zorg at 01 Feb 23:01
LFHN, LSGP, LFHM

Only Chamois (Italy), but I don’t recall precisely what paperwork was involved.

Incidentally, Carcassonne is close to the Pyrenees, where the altisurfaces might be snow-free by the beginning of May. Could be a recipe for some mountain malarkey…

Glenswinton, SW Scotland, United Kingdom

AeroPlus wrote:

If you have any questions, don’t hesitate to contact me.

I hope the camera exaggerated the blinding sun effect. Probably almost as bad as a friendly laser shining in your eyes on short final.

(P.s.: Why do they write “laser” in such a silly way on another well-known aviation forum?)

LFHN, LSGP, LFHM

They were worried that people with bad intentions would stumble upon the discussions through search engines and may somehow be inspired or encouraged by them. Pretty far fetched if you ask me.

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