MarkW wrote:
The insurer has been advised by AOPA (not sure whether they are referring to AOPA UK or USA) that N-reg rental is not possible in the UK. Instead the group should be operated on a shared ownership basis. The insurer cannot provide any written statement from AOPA to this effect, nor will it confirm the legal basis on which N-reg rental is not permitted.
You need to find an insurer with a more accurate source of legal advice. Have you tried Visicover?
CAP1335 asserts that self-fly hire is not a “commercial operation” in the EASA regime. While the ANO was amended after that consultation as far as non-EASA (now non-Part-21) aircraft go, the EASA regime has been transposed into UK law.
Are you sure that Part 119 applies? Is the aircraft more than 6000 lb?!
Get you a proof a of ownership to give to your FI, DfT, CAA or Broker…they will all agree “that dual flying owners by local instructors is very healthy”, isn’t that what insurers, instructors and regulator want to see to be happy for N-reg oversight? it has to be legal, especially if it’s regulator & insurance who mandates the dual time and it’s regulator who want to see local FCL papers for based FAA aircrafts 
The rules are probably complicated and mixed and there is load of rumours around but let’s not forget where the heading bug sits !
The easy way is to become a share owner…
What will that do?
Insurance for renting to non-named pilots is bloody expensive
Insurance for instructing owners is bloody cheap
None if this is related to legal or illegal claims on “renting N-reg”, they are still operated under Part-NCO & Part-91, there are some caveats about who can fly it & maintenance
The easy way is to become a share owner…
Yes, insurance has to be done right. I rented out my N-reg TB20 up to 2006 and had it insured for “club use”. Expensive at about £6000/year.
However that is not the same thing as the old assertion that renting is illegal.
I haven been dealing with these issues for our club and am currently dealing with them for my own sake and it’s not that straightforward. First of all you most differentiate between renting and instructing. At least here in the US if you rent out an airplane, you need a commercial insurance. Be also aware, that renter’s insurance (in insurance lingo ‘non-owned airplane insurance’) does NOT cover you if the underlying policy is for pleasure and business. The easiest way around this is to name the pilot(s) in question on the policy or to sell minority non-voting shares in the airplane.
@markW posts moved into existing thread of same topic.
The insurer has been advised by AOPA (not sure whether they are referring to AOPA UK or USA) that N-reg rental is not possible in the UK.
This one has been banging around since well before I went N-reg in 2005, and I have never seen any evidence for it.
I even knew one “UK forum sky god” who for years claimed that you need a dry lease to do this, and again I never found any evidence for it.
So I think this is bollox
I am all for making a full disclosure to your insurer, but they are unlikely to give you a ruling. They will just say “the flight has to be legal” and wash their hands of any responsibility for legal advice.
I wonder if @Porchy ever found anything out?
Maybe worth checking with other insurers (e.g. Visicover, CSP), good luck!
MarkW wrote:
Director would not give any ownership rights
Yes maybe not for “private/leisure use” but they can still get permission to fly aircraft, get training/insurance…
Ibra wrote:
It’s a shame but why can’t the company issue pilots with 1$ shares
Director would not give any ownership rights. However shares in the company is certainly possible, with a bit of paperwork to create a separate class of non-voting shares with no right to receive dividends.
The risk, discussed with the broker, is that renters holding a tiny shareholding compared to the owners may be viewed as a sham . The substance of the arrangement is likely to be viewed as rental, irrespective of the label attached to it.
MarkW wrote:
The insurer has been advised by AOPA (not sure whether they are referring to AOPA UK or USA) that N-reg rental is not possible in the UK. Instead the group should be operated on a shared ownership basis
It’s a shame but why can’t the company issue pilots with 1$ shares (or 0.01cent if it’s a G1 Cirrus ) that they can buy & sell as share holders? or name them as directors/beneficiaries? as long as their names appear in annual company statement everybody will be happy?
N-reg can be operated under FAR91 & NCO, that includes owner training while instructor is getting paid, this does not require any DfT/CAA permission as you say per ANO2016, but the best way to approach insuerers is to have “named permissions” for flight training (typically given to aircraft owner or, where the aircraft is owned by a company or trust, up to four directors or beneficiaries, FCS 1500 form & 81 GBP sent to [email protected])
On who can teach N-reg owners in UK airspace? PPL+CRI? UK CPL+FI? FAA CPL+CFI? the answer largely depends on who you ask and how much financial interest they have in the answer, surely an EASA CPL+FI+Class1 & FAA CPL+CFI+Class1 attached to both an ATO & Part141 should be able to do it
