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National CAA policies around Europe on busting pilots who bust controlled airspace (and danger areas)

Same in France.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

MedEwok wrote:

I don’t quite understand. In Germany, if you are in contact with Langen Information, you will always get a handover to a different sector by them, even without a FP. So while you can see the different sector frequencies on the chart, you are not expected to switch on your own, rather you will be told whom to contact and when.

That’s good service, but not something they are required to do (well, possibly by their own rules). In Norway and Sweden, unfortunately you can’t expect that kind of service when flying VFR. You can expect it when flying IFR in class G.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

I think the issue is that under VFR it’s your responsibility to get the clearances you need. So yes, often ATC will prompt you to change frequency when approaching the edge of an adjacent sector (in class G), if they don’t it’s up to you to ask for clearance to leave the frequency to call the other unit.

I understand it’s ATC’s responsibility if it’s two adjoining controlled sectors (Class B/C/D for VFR). But as the person who’s going to be in trouble if it goes wrong, I’d not cross a sector of adjoining controlled airspaces without getting a clearance from the new unit.

EIWT Weston, Ireland

dublinpilot wrote:

I think the issue is that under VFR it’s your responsibility to get the clearances you need.

Just to be clear: Very same holds true for IFR!
The only (but practically very relevant) difference is, that on IFR flights it’s much more common that at the beginning of the flight you receive the clearance for your entire flight or at least a major portion of it, while under VFR it is much more common that you only receive a clearance for the next airspace.

Btw.: It is a very common question in IFR skill tests, what you do if you approach at your clearance limit and don’t receive a further clearance before you reach it….

Germany

Malibuflyer wrote:

Just to be clear: Very same holds true for IFR!
The only (but practically very relevant) difference is, that on IFR flights it’s much more common that at the beginning of the flight you receive the clearance for your entire flight or at least a major portion of it, while under VFR it is much more common that you only receive a clearance for the next airspace.

Btw.: It is a very common question in IFR skill tests, what you do if you approach at your clearance limit and don’t receive a further clearance before you reach it….

Add to that that sometimes the controller doesn’t know what the previous controller has cleared you for! On a flight a couple of days ago I was handed over from one London TC controller to the next and then to Farnborough. All three got confused (especially the Farnborough controller) when I asked them what the next point to fly to was as all three thought they had cleared me for the STAR but none of them actually did! I only got cleared to fly direct to various points on the STAR. When I am cleared for a STAR, I would normally tell the next controller but I am not aware of phraseology where I should say “Maintaining FL80, inbound IBGON, NOT cleared for any STAR”

I have since called Farnborough to pass on that feedback to London TC – I find clearances in the UK to be pretty sloppy, especially in the case of enroute IFR airways pickups.

EGTF, EGLK, United Kingdom

This is one of the reasons I record all comms, on any flight where I am talking to units other than my base. And I keep the files “for ever” because MP3s are pretty small.

I just wish the recorder was integrated into the aircraft somehow. It is aircraft powered but occassionally I forget to turn it off and then I find the 4xAA batteries are flat.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

New numbers for the UK have just come out. ATZ bust MORs are back up again

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

wbardorf wrote:

Add to that that sometimes the controller doesn’t know what the previous controller has cleared you for!

Replace sometimes by always if you fly across northern Italy….

Germany

GASCo will be back in business lifting you up side down and shaking your pockets with mailce.

Peter wrote:

New numbers for the UK have just come out. ATZ bust MORs are back up again

I am genuinely unsurprised by this. I flew from Gamston to Antwerp today and I must say I find ATC shocking. Cancelling your IFR, all this basic service nonsense, remain outside of controlled airspace blah, blah, blah. It was the first time in my entire flying career that I literally felt things were being set up to trip me up rather than to enable a smooth IFR flight. I’ve been monitoring this thread for a while and found it hard to believe things were so bad, but today I witnessed how backwards things really are. And then you cross the FIR into Holland (with Amsterdam arguably being slightly busier than Norwich) and everything becomes easier and normal, the way IFR flying is meant to be.

LFHN - Bellegarde - Vouvray France
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