Hi all,
I’m new to this forum, having spent the last few days trying to find a similar question already; but didn’t manage so here we go -
I’m a fairly inexperienced pilot, while I’ve had my PPL(A) since 2006, I’ve only accumulated around 200 hours in my logbook – when younger there was time but no money to fly, later there was money to fly but no time; now I’m finally approaching a stage in life where there are both, and hoping to fly a lot more the next 20 years than the previous 20 :-)
I’ve been considering (or rather, dreaming of) buying an airplane for many years, and all of a sudden I found my absolute dream plane for sale and just went ahead and bought it; thinking I will figure out the rest later.
So, I just purchased an airplane and am trying to figure out a number of things:
I’ve been trying to figure out the answers to the things above, but find reading EASA rules a pretty daunting task due to their both fragmented nature and application for a much broader domain than my own (SEP PPL(A), VFR).
I’m wondering if there is anyone on this forum with experience of either just aircraft ownership in general, that would be able to give some pointers for more information around the general ownership questions – or someone who even has experience with a similar situation, owning a non-type certified aircraft & managing to fly it using the Permit to Fly rules?
Best wishes & thank you in advance,
Simon
simonfi wrote:
- To make things even more interesting, the plane is not type certified so an airworthiness certificate is out of the question; it’s also not homebuilt, so experimental won’t work – my plan/hope is to be able to fly it using an “Unlimited duration Permit to Fly”, anyone here with any experience of that?
If you are referring to an EASA Permit to Fly, I have experience with that. My friend bought an EASA PtF Aircraft from Switzerland, imported it to Germany and I helped register it there, aided with the running. The process itself was – well, let’s call it “interesting”. EASA was very helpful which showed just how bureaucratic LBA was because they couldn’t have been less helpful, had they tried. Once the initial transfer of ownership was done, everything was easy.
We had to follow the manufacturer’s maintenance manual but that wasn’t too onerous, especially as all the parts were non certified hence much cheaper, could have done more work ourselves, had we so desired but we know an extremely competent and helpful engineer hence he does all the work. At the end of the year, my friend had to submit 2 documents to the LBA – change the date on each, that was all – and submit a picture of the logbook with a stamp from a maintenance organisation which confirmed the aircraft was airworthy. Within a week or so the new permit arrived, so was really simple.
Welcome to EuroGA, Simon 
I have no Permit experience myself but many here have.
What’s the complete amount of “paperwork” required to keep an airplane legal to fly (within EU/EASA rules – plane purchased in Finland, but planning to bring it to Spain if feasible, if not I’ll just keep it in Finland and use it when I’m there)? I’m trying to find a definitive list, covering everything such as all registrations needed (including radio permissions, etc), insurances, inspections required. The aircraft is coming out of military inventory, and from a civilian point of view basically doesn’t exist at this point in time (except being listed as an Annex II aircraft) – so any kind of documentation/registration will have to be done from scratch.
I think this depends on the country of registry.
When it comes to maintenance, I remember from PPL school mentions of “if you own your own aircraft, you can do the 50 hour maintenance yourself”, but that was almost 20 years ago and I’m sure things have changed. What is the required maintenance & maintenance intervals, and which parts can legally be done yourself (and how are they in that case documented?)
That is still the case, except for ADs which on a Permit can be disregarded (this depends on the country of registry; may not be safe or wise).
To make things even more interesting, the plane is not type certified so an airworthiness certificate is out of the question; it’s also not homebuilt, so experimental won’t work – my plan/hope is to be able to fly it using an “Unlimited duration Permit to Fly”, anyone here with any experience of that?
What type are you looking at?
For a general idea of aircraft ownership, this may be worth a read.
Thread moved to Non Certified as it may be more applicable.
Thank you for the helpful answers & links!
The plane I have purchased is a Valmet L-70 Vinka ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valmet_L-70_Vinka ), the Finnish Air Force just auctioned out them, and I ended up managing to buy one for a surprisingly decent price for a very competent aircraft that is a perfect match for what I have been looking for (aerobatic airplane, but with capacity to bring family or friends for cross country flights as well).
I’ve been discussing with Traficom in Finland who turned out to be very helpful and reassured me that a “Permit to Fly” can be issued together with an “Airworthiness Review Certificate” once they’ve done a review of the plane. My impression is that once I’ve had the plane through initial maintenance (engine is due for overhaul at least) it should be a pretty straight-forward process to actually be allowed to fly it.
@Steve6443 do you know if there are any limitations on PtF, or will it be recognised by all EASA countries?
The plane I have purchased is a Valmet L-70 Vinka
That is really interesting, I learned of this type not long ago and was wondering about the status of those built (only 30 planes, or so says Wiki). I’m assuming the climb and cruise performance is something like a Bulldog, but any info would be fun to hear. It’s a lot better looking than a Bulldog and IIRC can carry four in a pinch.
Understanding you may not wish to disclose specific details, was it just good value or truly inexpensive? It’s very interesting to learn that they’ve now been auctioned off. How many airframe hours is on the typical aircraft?
From this link “The design of the Vinka is fully compliant with the FAR 23 certification standards in aerobatics and utility classes” I also notice in photos that some Vinkas have had civilian tail numbers. Many ex-military types have type certificates in their own country, and with a conformity inspection do not need a special permit. Given the very limited production volume of the Valmet I understand that this may not apply, but I hope you can get the plane in the air quickly.
@Silvaire since it was a public auction on the internet, there’s nothing secret about the price. They all sold for around 45k€. They all have their engine at the end of its TBO interval, and also airframes close to the airworthiness limit defined by the factory.
Initially they had an airworthiness limit of 5000 hours, but went through a lifetime extension upgrade after which the limit was increased to 7000 hours. All of the sold ones now that I saw were at around 6800 hours. Before purchasing I was discussing with one of the mechanics who has been maintaining the planes in the air force whose personal opinion at least was that there’s nothing magic about these 7000 hours – it was just a limit agreed between the producer and the air force, the planes are in good condition and should be able to safely fly for much longer.
I haven’t yet gotten so far that I have a quote what the engine overhaul will cost, but my expectation is that the end result will be “good value” but not “truly inexpensive” – under the assumption that the airworthiness limitation on the airframe set by the factory will be possible to override, and given that I simply haven’t been able to find an equivalent airplane that would match what I want.
The Bulldog was actually what I was mainly comparing to, to get a sense of the value myself – I see 3 for sale on planecheck.com at the moment, but they are all a few years older than the Vinkas & more than twice the price (and still only seat 2, for me at least 3 is a requirement – and I definitely agree with you, the Vinka looks a lot better :-) ).
I think there’s only a single Vinka so far with a civilian tail number, OH-VAA, which from my understanding was a demo version Valmet used when trying to market the plane to other potential buyers also, but I’d expect there will be at least 15 civilian ones appearing now shortly.
Once I get a chance to get the plane in the air I can certainly share the real performance numbers if you are interested.
Thank you.
I think it would be a great plane… and also for my use in the US. There are not many military-style training aircraft that have easy to maintain mechanicals and four seats, as well as stick controls, aerobatic capability and bubble canopy. N-registration for use in the US would easy and maintenance in that regime only requires a (non-IA) A&P for Annuals, nothing for repairs and maintenance.
I want one too 
Congratulations on a cool aircraft. If you have not done so already, I suggest that you start gathering all the other owners to work on extending those airframe hours.
You have the same objective and it will be easier to do it together with the others, especially if you are not fluent in Finnish.
Congrats on your new aircraft! Looks very cool and very unique. A mix of “oldtimer” (almost) and rare.
Here is an official invitation to visit me in EDQN with her :)
About the engine TBO: don’t rush on doing it because you reach the number. If everything works well, it can possibly run past TBO.
Read the “High time engine” section on page 2 of this document:
https://resources.savvyaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/articles_aopa/AOPA_2021-05_what-airplane-should-i-buy.pdf
I too am a very “young” (in experience, not in age) aircraft owner. I am glad the previous owner is still around to teach me. He had her for over 20 years then decided to sell, as he’s well into his 70’s. We developed a friendship and regularly fly together. Therefore my advice to you is to find local persons, maybe other Vinka owners?, to exchange.
Lots of fun and pleasure with your new aircraft!
Thank you & thank you for the advice. @Fly310 I already told Traficom that they are free to share my contact details with other new Vinka owners who want to reach out, as Traficom also recommended we should cooperate.
@etn That was an interesting article, thank you! I was surprised myself that even Traficom informed me that I can fly past the recommended TBO – my understanding was that it was something written in stone and had to be done.
I will take you up on the EDQN invite :-), I have a friend who lives in Offenbach that I intend to visit once I fly the plane from Finland to Spain.
