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LAA Permit Aircraft stationed abroad

Bumping the topic because I have started to look into this very topic and wondering if anyone on here can help me out.

I would like to see if I could keep a G-Reg Tecnam or Europa and base it in Germany. I have ended up with a lot of Chinese whispers.

The G-Reg is one option, and buying into D-Reg is another, but I can get no clear guidance at the moment on either issue…. There is so much conflicting Information and opinions it isn’t easy to build a decent picture. But at least with a G-Reg it is under a system that I have a basic understanding of from previously owning some shares in the UK.

What my goal is to achieve is something where most maintenance can be done by me, is a solid tourer and I don’t mind VFR Day only because apart from 1 or 2 fields I can get to, they are all day time as well.

Last Edited by italianjon at 20 Dec 11:21
EDHS, Germany

Hallo,

i have bought a LAA permit aircraft from another german, and after registeríng it to my name i immediately got a letter from the LAA that they will not be able to nenew the permit next time it expires.
I read in this thread that some of you made a similar experience; did they finally really refuse to renew it?
How did you solve this problem, is an trustee in UK an option?

Thank you
Juergen

Does anyone know the answer to this query by @flieger39 ?

It is a very serious situation to find oneself in.

Regarding a “trustee” it is known that some variations of this situation are dealt with by having a contact in the country of registration who acts as a “post office” (you may have to pay him a bit for it) but you can’t do that on a G-reg homebuilt because they have an annual inspection of the actual aircraft by an LAA inspector. The “trustee” method works only on homebuilts which don’t have any regulatory authority inspection (of which there are several around Europe).

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

It is a very serious situation to find oneself in.

What situation is it exactly? I guess the LAA included some kind of reason.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

Judging from this thread, the LAA will not renew the permit if the aircraft is based outside the UK.

So, G-reg homebuilt owners based outside the UK have been flying them back to the UK for the annual inspection

That is why the advice (in the above link) to not let the permit expire while outside the UK. If that happens, you cannot fly back to the UK because the aircraft is not legal to fly. So you are screwed, and your only options may be

  • fly it back to the UK illegally
  • find an LAA inspector who will travel to it and not make a fuss
  • transfer it to the local register (could be difficult or impossible)
  • dismantle it and ship it back to the UK as cargo

I do know one LAA inspector and will ask him tomorrow.

An interesting question might be whether the seller was aware of this when he sold the plane……….. there is no comeback of course in that case but it would not be the first time (by a totally hugely massive margin) that somebody did that.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I once finished building and then flew for a few years a Europa Tri-gear (G-CDEX). For a year during my ownership of it, I worked in Germany and I flew around much of Europe in the Permit aircraft. During the year or more actually when the Europa was based in Merseberg (EDAM), I was caught out by a mandatory modification ‘before next flight’. I did the mod work myself (glass layups in the tailplane) and investigated having a german Inspector sign off the work but it was simpler in the end to have my PFA (now LAA) inspector fly out from the UK to inspect the europa and sign off the logbooks. The annual inspection though was coordinated with a trip to the UK I think.

EGNV and Fishburn Airfield

It can be done. But the permit expiring abroad thing is the catch. Never let it happen. It can be hassle and I am learning that there might be better options in terms of registrations where you can transfer the aircraft.

German reg is not possible unless 51% was built here. Or that’s what I have been told when I made enquires.

I too have received the LAA letter… pm me if you want some details on what I am doing to solve the issue.

EDHS, Germany

[LAA letter deleted on request – stating that a G-reg Permit To Fly cannot be renewed on an aircraft stationed outside the UK]

LeSving: The LAA included no reason. See scan from LAA letter.
The aircraft has been based in Germanby for many years.
Annual inspection was done and could be done in future by a LAA inspectors who travels to Germany to do it.

Peter: I also think about a trustee; why do you think it’s not possible?

Last Edited by flieger39 at 19 Aug 09:22

A good one from the LAA, since a transfer to the german register is impossible…
As if the permit renewal once a year in the UK is not enough of a hassle. I’m a member of the LAA but thinking about resigning my membership just because they don’t care much about the trouble they put LAA-aircraft owners into.
Lucky me to have registered my Europa in the Netherlands a few years ago.

Last Edited by europaxs at 19 Aug 09:40
EDLE

I also think about a trustee; why do you think it’s not possible?

Because an LAA inspector has to see it physically.

If you just needed a UK mailing address, lots of people would do it for a small payment, or for nothing, for a friend.

You may just have to fly it to the UK and pretend it is based there, for the next annual inspection. And have a UK address arranged for that, and for subsequent contacts. Don’t post your aircraft reg publicly anywhere in case the LAA sees it – or somebody who might tell them.

I have tried to contact two LAA-related people but neither is returning calls.

Lucky me to have registered my Europa in the Netherlands a few years ago.

I believe they require an address in the Netherlands which means you cannot easily sell it other than somebody in the NL, or establish a “mailbox” address in the NL. But at least the NL CAA doesn’t need to see the aircraft. We had a lot of debate here on this some months ago.

The problem with a “mailbox” setup is that the owner of the mailbox has you over a barrel.

The problem with a formal “trustee” setup is that if the LAA refuses to sign off an aircraft whose owner has a non-UK address, then the trustee is party to an “illegal” activity and the whole thing is dodgy. You could again end up over a barrel, if the thing “blows up” right when you need the annual inspection.

The trustee route is widely used with N-reg (certified) aircraft but there it is 100% legal because the FARs do not prohibit trustee ownership.

In the case of the LAA, IMHO, trustee ownership (while being in itself legal because a trustee can own anything whatsoever for a beneficial owner) is not a legal means of getting around the LAA rule. What this means in practice is that if the trustee acted in breach of the trust agreement, there would be nothing you could do about it because he and you are both together in a criminal activity. (I am not a lawyer, etc).

One of the various pitfalls with homebuilts, and most of the owners are unaware of it. The other day I spoke to one owner who was completely unaware of the need to get permits in various countries. He was adamant they (it’s a syndicate, and the others had no idea either) can fly anywhere – until I sent him that LAA doc on it… They spent something like GBP 80k on building it, and didn’t know…

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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