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LAA Permit Aircraft stationed abroad

flieger39 wrote:

LeSving: The LAA included no reason. See scan from LAA letter.

Considering you have a build log, you can register it in Norway and maintain it (100h /yearly) wherever you want by a technician of some kind, wouldn’t surprice me if the the LAA inspector may do . Only problem, you have to pay 25% VAT France, Sweden or Poland would be good places also I would think, and no VAT (there is no VAT within EU?)

I don’t remember exactly what the letter said (before it was deleted), but this seems to me to simply be outside the jurisdiction of the LAA. The are not authorized by the CAA to change ownership outside the UK to someone not living in the UK, or something like that.

Last Edited by LeSving at 19 Aug 16:52
The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

“One of the various pitfalls with homebuilts, and most of the owners are unaware of it.”
@Peter: There are various pitfalls with any aircraft ownership, doesn’t matter if it is a homebuilt, they are only different.
E. g. the ownership of a dutch registered homebuilt is not at all a hassle. You need a representative who in my case is my mechanic. There are also mainenance facilities offering the complete handling of the aircraft. The annual inspection has to be done by a dutch inspector as well and of course you have to be aware, which countries (many) you are generally allowed to enter (and for which ones you have to apply for it). There are even countries in the world, where you have to apply for entering them with a CofA-aircraft

EDLE

There are also mainenance facilities offering the complete handling of the aircraft.

However, don’t you lose much of the advantage of a homebuilt, if a company does everything on it?

If comparing spec for spec, the cost advantage of an uncertified aircraft derives mainly from

  • doing your own maintenance (and valuing your time at zero)
  • not complying with arbitrary component life limits (usually safe, and usually possible on certified N-reg too)
  • not complying with ADs (questionable – most ADs are serious safety issues)
  • being able to use lower cost parts (permitted in variously restricted ways, according to the country)
  • being able to use much cheaper avionics (e.g. Dynon, but then you can’t fly GPS approaches)

The annual inspection has to be done by a dutch inspector as well

Is that true for a PH-reg? If true, that’s dynamite

@europaxs, would you happen to know anything about the issues here?

and of course you have to be aware, which countries (many) you are generally allowed to enter (and for which ones you have to apply for it). There are even countries in the world, where you have to apply for entering them with a CofA-aircraft

Very true – most of the 3rd World needs overflight permits for any aircraft… but civilised countries (most of political Europe, the USA, Oz, NZ, etc) don’t need it. Most people flying to say Africa purchase the permits from an overflight agent. Usually they are not too expensive. I was once quoted GBP 70 per person for the permits and visas, to Luxor HELX. The other logistics (e.g. getting avgas drums pre-positioned) cost way more.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

When a maintenance facility (doesn’t have to be one, it’s only often a logical choice) does only the administrative handling part for you, you don’t lose any of the advantages of your listing. It simply makes sense to have “someone” who can manage such things for you, at least if you don’t speak the language of the country where the aircraft is registered fluently.

I wasn’t clear regarding the annual inspection. It only has to be signed off by a dutch inspector. That’s what my mechanic told me and as he signes off the papers for my aircraft anyway, I didn’t question it.

Selling a homebuilt to another country can indeed be difficult, even more so, because often it cannot remain on the register (like now in the UK) and cannot be registered in the other country (like in Germany). There’s no such thing as a free lunch….

Last Edited by europaxs at 20 Aug 09:19
EDLE

It only has to be signed off by a dutch inspector. That’s what my mechanic told me and as he signes off the papers for my aircraft anyway, I didn’t question it.

I don’t know the answer myself (I keep only half an eye on homebuilts, in case things change in the future) but I do know that if a PH-reg needs an annual inspection by a Dutch mechanic, that is dynamite…

There’s no such thing as a free lunch

Agree 100% but sometimes the “hardship” is acceptable. For example, for political reasons where I am based (and these have always existed) I have to fly to another airport for the Annual, and currently for any servicing. This is not a problem and I like it because with my engineer we rent a nice hangar for GBP 30/day and make sure everything is done perfectly. But there would be no difference between that and me flying to say N France, once a year. The difference would be that both of us would be stuck there for say 3 days whereas currently he gets home for the night and drives me back too. And indeed one day I might end up looking for an empty hangar for a few days in say N France…

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

and valuing your time at zero

This is 100% wrong. One could say the same about every little thing we do that does not create income. Like going to the movies, doing sport, driving, flying… It’s not like building and maintaining an aircraft is a punishment Well, fore some people it probably is, but not for those actually doing it.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

One could say the same about every little thing we do that does not create income. Like going to the movies, doing sport, driving, flying… It’s not like building and maintaining an aircraft is a punishment Well, fore some people it probably is, but not for those actually doing it.

I agree I enjoy the work too.

But if somebody was to argue that owning a homebuilt is X times cheaper than a CofA, they need to be able to defend it in detail

Not everybody wants to and (even if they want to) not everybody knows how to do aircraft maintenance. There are many pilots who buy a plane and can fly it but who

  • cannot drive a car with a manual gearbox (I know one)
  • cannot read TAFs/METARs (I know a few)
  • cannot check tyre pressures in a car (I know some too)

So they use a company to do all the work, and pay. In most of life, the less you know the more you pay.

Or they “use” another syndicate member, if co-owned. That’s not long-term sustainable, of course.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I think a more correct approach is how much you value your spare time and how you prioritise.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

I think there are some differences in definitions of terms here. An inspection in the UK is different to an inspection in Holland, and the French don’t seem to have them… Remember with permits you are not dealing with international standards and national authorities can choose their own strategies, they are not directly comparable.

In the UK the CAA have discharged the responsibility of permit administration to the LAA. The ownership of the aircraft is still registered by the CAA. Also in the UK the inspector is inspecting and signing off on the condition of the aircraft, something that doesn’t necessarily happen elsewhere. From what I can tell, and I am still investigating this, only the 2-yearly Pitot/Static check which is required by the Dutch authorities must be done by a Dutch registered person. Otherwise you are responsible for the airworthiness. (Maybe europaxs can comment further here)

I know that this is true in France as well, that you can submit annual paperwork with no inspection. Due to the strategy of the authorisation to fly, by being required to build 51% yourself, you then have the skills to maintain it, so you can.

The one I can’t work out is Germany… You can’t transfer in a foreign registered aircraft unless it was built within the “…confines of the Federal Republic of Germany” – ironically mine started life in Germany apparently, but not documented, so my GRP glue must have adhered less efficiently

Last Edited by italianjon at 20 Aug 14:38
EDHS, Germany

You hit the nail on the head. Bottom line is, that you are generally responsible for maintaining the aircraft in an airworthy condition and therefore make some declarations in this regard for the anual permit. The dutch inspector has to sign off some more devices (radio, transponder…) as “oke” every year (I’ll check this in detail, when I have the documents at hand). That might have changed recently in so far, as it has to be signed off by a dutch inspector now, whereas before any JAR 145-facility could have done that (though I never went that way “outside the Netherlands”).

Last Edited by europaxs at 20 Aug 15:16
EDLE
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