Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

Homebuilt / ultralight / permit (non ICAO CofA) and IFR - how?

a_kraut wrote:

As I understand it, it is not the airframe which needs to be certified for IFR, but the instrumentation and installation.

For certified aircraft, definitely the airframe needs to be certified for IFR! One requirement is that it must survive a lightning strike. This means that e.g. composite material designs need to have lightning protection designed in from the beginning (typically using a conductive metal mesh) otherwise they can never be certified for IFR.

For UL, I don’t know.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Airborne_Again wrote:

For certified aircraft, definitely the airframe needs to be certified for IFR!

I think the situation is much less definitive. The concept of IFR certification standards didn’t exist at the time most of the current fleet was (FAA) certified and accordingly the concept does not exist in the TC for those planes, or derivative documents. That doesn’t stop you from flying for example a (metal) Cessna 152, (tube and wood) Bellanca Viking or (tube and rag) Piper Tripacer under IFR – many of them have been, are, and will be forever. For more recent types, and it seems to me based on experience more so for older European (e.g. older LBA certified German) types, there may be a TC operating limitation or mandatory placard that addresses flight conditions. How specifically that is related to changing certification standards, somebody else will have to answer…

Last Edited by Silvaire at 04 Nov 22:11

Silvaire wrote:

The concept of IFR certification standards didn’t exist at the time most of the current fleet was (FAA) certified and accordingly the concept does not exist in the TC for those planes, or derivative documents.

Certainly, but the question was not about older aircraft but what is required for IFR approval of an aircraft today — specifically UL.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

I am sure this was posted here previously but this outlines the UK LAA procedures for what are basically homebuilts.

Other countries will have their own versions but finding these docs is really hard. All one tends to find is some advert on planecheck – example – which claims “IFR approved” but one never finds out how this was done, and some of them appear to be bogus claims.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

At first glimpse, this document is a very sympathetic pragmatic expression of common sense. There is certainly no such thing in Germany …
A pity they require a certified engine. Most Rotax 912 in experimentals are of the non-certified breed.

Bremen (EDWQ), Germany

It is a good approach, except IMHO the bit about lightning being an insignificant risk. It is hardly that… but one can see they don’t want to open that can of worms because only metal homebuilts (e.g. RVs) would qualify; the rest would require virtually impossible reconstruction and bonding. That would have made this IFR process a highly divisive proposition within the homebuilding community.

Even on certified aircraft, there have been plenty of reports about “plastic planes” (Cirruses and Diamonds, basically) getting static buildups which crashed the avionics. These go back years so perhaps the issues have been solved since. But you can’t begin to solve it unless you have metal mesh, or presumably carbon fibre dense enough to continuously conduct, embedded in the composite.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Jodel DR1050 aircraft were certified, and some were flown IFR, before EASA dumped them as “Orphans” in Annex 2. (Now renamed Annex 1)
I don’t think they had lightning protection. I’ve seen wings without the fabric.

Maoraigh
EGPE, United Kingdom

Other countries will have their own versions but finding these docs is really hard.

Not really, an email to the local experimental/homebuilt association will do. But it is always (IME) written in the native language, so you will not find anything in English, making it hard/impossible to use the web the usual way, for an English speaker at least.

For instance, in Norway the regulations are easy to find at the first or second logical place to look. You don’t even have to search. But, I bet no English (only) speaker will be able to find anything

This situation is not likely to change, since these are local regulations.

Maoraigh wrote:

UK IFR is possible in an LAA Permit aircraft, but not automatically outside UK Airspace, if at all.

Regarding the entry of foreign aircraft the German AIP (GEN 1.2 III.1 – Permission of entry for aircraft with restricted certification) says:

Permission is not required for aircraft registered in the European Economic Area with a Permit to Fly with the exact wording: “This Permit to Fly is issued pursuant to Regulation (EC) 216/2008, Article 5 (4) (a) and certifies that the aircraft is capable of safe flight for the purpose and within the conditions listed below and is valid in all Member States.”

No mentioning of VFR only…

My interpretation would be that if you have an e.g. UK or Swedish registered homebuild with IFR permission stated in its PtF, you could legally fly under IFR within German airspace.

Please correct me, if I am wrong…

EDNG, EDST, Germany

Thanks Supersonic, my UK LAA cleared for IFR permit says:
‘Pursuant to the Article 41(4) of the Air Navigation Order 2016 of the United Kingdom and CAP 553 BCAR section A Chapter A3-7’
I will now look up this reference.

Norman
United Kingdom
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top