My post of some time ago in the thread “TL Stream”
I managed to fly the Stream and the Blackshape one after the other one day last week so could compare, in particular on things that are important to me..
Cockpit
I measure 1.91 cm and in the BS I barely fit up front and do not fit in the back. The Stream was fine. But it all depends on ‘head-to-butt’ length of course. Now with age we all shrink so fitting in is just a matter of time.
The visibility is outstanding for both aircraft. Slight advantage for the Blackshape with its smaller wings.
Avionics, controls: I prefer the Stream’s Garmin 3X over the Blackshape’s Dynon. Sharper display to start with. Nice, separate A/P controls too. I like the side stick controls of the Stream better than the centre stick of the BS, if only because you can put stuff on your lap. Besides, the centre stick of the BS is rather low which I found a little awkward.
Flying
I am anal about sound levels. The Stream wins, but I suppose this is only because of the 3-blade prop vs the 2-bladed prop on the BS. My Bristell is rather quiet, but the Stream beats it! With the Bose A20 and a engine RPM of 5000 is was impressively quiet. I suppose it has to do with composites vs metal and maybe the smaller cross section of the fuselage, i.e. less surface of a vibrating bulkhead?
The in-flight handling is similar. Both are very stable in normal flight. Steep turns are like on rails. The Stream’s control are noticeably heavier though, probably because of the short arm to the first pivot point. A matter of personal taste. It definitively feels like flying a bigger aircraft. The electric trim on the Stream is too slow for my taste, repeatedly creating a PIO. But these things are just a matter of getting used to.
I did not do any stalls in the BS, pilot in the back told me it can easily drop a wing. Pilot in the back of the Stream told me the Stream does that too, so he asked me to make sure to keep the ball nicely centred. Stalls were consistent at 59 KIAS flaps up, plenty of buffet and rather mild.
Landing both planes is not a big deal. The slotted flaps on the Stream are very effective, but the smaller ailerons make larger inputs necessary to keep level at low speeds which became apparent after encountering some gusts on short final.
Speed is not a priority for me. I saw a slight advantage for the Blackshape but this may not be representative (different payload, and possible different accuracies of ASIs).BS 130 KIAS at 65%, Stream 125.
Some general observations
Both are nice machines and seem very well built. Although data is sketchy, the empty weight of the BS is higher, close to 400kg for a fully equipped one while the Stream is around 325 kg. Both aircraft are non-aerobatic but the BS is clearly capable of light-aero, positive G of course. Ask me how I know and I will tell you to get on YouTube, ahem The pilot who flew with me on the Stream categorically denied any aero capabilities..
As to track record, the BS is ahead as they have probably built around 50, while TL built less than 10 Streams. AFAIUI they are in the phase of a limited airworthiness regime that applies to a pre-production series of 10 exemplars. So know I can walk around the village here telling everyone I’m a certified test pilot. Going off buying a Buck Danny jacket tomorrow..
Tandem vs side-by-side. Obviously these planes are more pilot-oriented than ‘couple’ oriented. I’m not sure I’m going to score a lot of points with my loved one when I have to ask her to put the raft on her lap when we go to Catalonia.
Still I’m tempted to subtract 220 k from my kids’ inheritance, in spite of the stock markets of the last 3 days..
aart wrote:
I flew the Blackshape three times and the (similar) TL-Stream once. Approach speed in both aircraft was 65 knots and that felt absolutely fine. 60 knots stall speed cannot be true for the Blackshape. I remember doing an appch-to-stall in the Stream and was still happily flying at 35-40 KIAS IIRC. I was less impressed with the Blackshape when it came to take-off performance. Although being C/S, the acceleration generated by that 2-blade prop was not impressive. Must have taken at least 300-350m ground roll but I could not measure it exactly. 2 POB. The Stream with its 3-blade prop did much better.
Thanks for the feedback but what can you say about the real world performance in cruise? I’ve seen (eg) VL3, Shark aircraft flying on flightradar24 and they achieve (same day) 140knots each way whereas the Prime typically is seen around 115TAS?
I flew the Blackshape three times and the (similar) TL-Stream once. Approach speed in both aircraft was 65 knots and that felt absolutely fine. 60 knots stall speed cannot be true for the Blackshape. I remember doing an appch-to-stall in the Stream and was still happily flying at 35-40 KIAS IIRC. I was less impressed with the Blackshape when it came to take-off performance. Although being C/S, the acceleration generated by that 2-blade prop was not impressive. Must have taken at least 300-350m ground roll but I could not measure it exactly. 2 POB. The Stream with its 3-blade prop did much better.
Raising this theme from the dead, has anyone actually had any experience with the Blackshape Prime? I’ve seen a few in EHLE offered for sale but the high empty weight (398kg!) and high stall speed – the flight instructor was saying 60 knots stall speed, means final is 80knots – is a little off putting, to say the least hence I’m asking for real world feedback on this.
For a plane that effectively should weigh 295kg in basic form, I can’t understand why most of the planes I’ve seen are closer to 400kg empty whereas a VL3, fully equipped, or a Shark, will weigh in around 340kg…..
So WN you think it has no USPs, no market, and was just an EU grant milking project?
Probably 50% of the exhibits at EDNY would be in the same category. They are so obviously baloons which people float up to see if there is interest.
Peter wrote:
…as I would hope the designers were before sinking the money in.
If I read their history (and what’s to be found on Wikipedia) correctly, the whole thing started as some kind of university project in Turin a decade ago. Never intended as a commercial product I suppose. It was then acquired (for a symbolic figure like 1€ I would guess) by the present company which was founded for this purpose. In the province of Bari, Puglie which attracts lots of EU structural funding money in order to move some “high tech” businesses to this (very pretty) end of the world. So my personal guess is that nobody has yet invested any money of his own into this project. And the very moment this will become necessary, the whole thing will simply disappear. As so many of it’s kind before. (But I lived in Italy for 20 years and might be a tiny little bit prejudiced 
)
Accounting for taste is a subjective thing…
However IMHO €200k+VAT is well into the “pretty amazing personal preferences” territory.
But let’s try to be objective about this, as I would hope the designers were before sinking the money in.
What does this do which you can’t get elsewhere.
Like some homebuilts, it delivers something you can’t get certified. What is that?
For example the “original” Lancairs (320, 360 IV etc) deliver good speed for the fuel flow, by having a small cockpit volume and (basically) reduced controllability at speeds which might be appropriate to a SEP’s low speed regime. Their market exists mostly in the USA where long hard runways are common. No comparable certified type exists (obviously).
This one delivers good speed for the fuel flow too, using the same means (no free lunch). As do all the others which look so similar and have the same engine.
Hopefully, by being a lot lighter than say a Lanc 320, it should have reasonable low speed handling. Being tandem it should be more efficient than a Lanc 320 however.
So what is unique?
The style is one thing. It does look good.
And what sort of pilots will pay this much? The running costs should be low but there is a lot of “avgas money” in that 200k+VAT.
200+k€ is a lot for only 92 kg useful load…
What is the certification category …
The current version is a microlight. For 200.000€ plus taxes. They can not realistically believe that they will sell many of them…
What is the certification category i.e. what are the international rights? It’s not a homebuilt, though I think some of the lookalikes at EDNY might have been.
