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IFR in homebuilts - UK LAA programme (merged)

@peter By saying it is the individual’s responsibility it translates, rather topically, if a DME is needed to fly a ILS then it is the individual who is responsible for having that equipment if intending to fly that approach.

Aircraft types need to be Approved, by a TP, as certain designs may be unsuitable for IFR.

Individual aircraft installations need to be approved as, for example, some Test Pilots are unhappy with the “customability” of certain EFISs ie things can be displayed that can be confusing, which in turn might lead to an accident.

Individuals also need to be correctly licenced ie have the appropriate rating for what they intend to do.

So, all common sense really.

Interestingly, the ANO changed recently where UK ATPL holders, who could previously operate to “full” limits in SEP aircraft, now need to be single crew IR rated to exercise that privilege.

They can still fly single crew IR but the limits have changed.

Rgds

Hampshire

I am sure whatever the required equipment is to be for the class or airspace or the particular IAP, the aircraft will have to have it regardless of its certification category.

That’s the position in the USA. But they have a key difference: the basic requirement for IFR is IIRC just a VOR and a radio. That enables a single IFR GPS, say a 430W, to do everything most people (well, those flying these types) need. There is no PRNAV, PBN, etc, etc….

Previous threads… example I too don’t “get” what saving a homebuilt pilot will be making if he has to put in five figures’ worth of certified avionics. Well, there are savings elsewhere of course: the engine is cheaper, you can do maintenance beyond pilot privileges, etc. The elimination of a maintenance company is the biggest saving, but if you have to put in certified avionics, that will be about your only savings, and installing the stuff is not exactly trivial either, especially if there is no bonding in the plastic (previous threads on that too).

At a practical level, there is no uncertified GPS which can fly GPS approaches of any kind. Not sure about ILS… Without these, “IFR” is a chocolate teapot.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

I too don’t “get” what saving a homebuilt pilot will be making if he has to put in five figures’ worth of certified avionics.

It is not necessarily about “savings” but rather about going from a very restrictive day VFR to night IFR clearance. It changes the possible mission profile massively…for those who desire it.

Also bear in mind their are aircraft types that were previously day, night IFR /VFR cleared that suddenly became day VFR only when they were forced to transfer to the LAA register. They didn’t lose any physical capability but were suddenly operating under a more restrictive licence.

To fly IFR safely you need “proper” equipment, which by it’s nature is expensive. You can’t have a homebuilt with non TSOd instruments operating next to an airliner with hundreds of people on board.

A basic IFR aircraft doesn’t need a ILS, GPS or 430, 530 etc. So, doesn’t need to be expensive but naturally it won’t be as capable.

It just depends what your mission profile is.

Hampshire

@Peter

At a practical level, there is no uncertified GPS which can fly GPS approaches of any kind. Not sure about ILS… Without these, “IFR” is a chocolate teapot.

I don’t understand this statement..please elaborate?

Of course you need a certified GPS, else the procedures are not valid!

I cannot see any licencing authority allowing IFR approaches on non certified equipment. What an individual chooses to do, at their own risk, on made up approaches with non certified equipment is up to them. Some will understand the risks, many others won’t…with obvious consequences.

Hampshire

Sure; of course being able to fly at night is valuable.

And e.g. moving an N-reg Lancair to G-reg you lose the IFR privileges. OTOH an N-reg Lanc can’t stay in the UK for more than 28 days…

But IFR without being able to fly an IAP? That’s not useful – unless you mean “IFR” in the technical sense of night=IFR (are there any countries in Europe that still run that?).

IFR implies IMC and flying in IMC requires an IAP to get back down – unless you can achieve it by descending to the MSA i.e. SFC+1000ft in the UK.

You can’t have a homebuilt with non TSOd instruments operating next to an airliner with hundreds of people on board.

That is exactly what you will have. A homebuilt, to fly IFR, won’t need all certified equipment. Only the nav box needs to be. Your PFD, AI, autopilot, the whole cockpit really, can and usually will be uncertified (subject to the IFR approval excluding certain avionics types – those docs listed them IIRC).

And flying an IAP which is “DME mandatory” will need a DME. Flying an NDB IAP will need an ADF to be legal…

In the UK, many would argue that IFR in Class G (which has no real equipment requirements, until you want to fly an IAP and then it’s as per above) is enough of a privilege, and I can see that. That would do IMCR holders. (Only IR holders would be flying enroute IFR in the Eurocontrol system and thus need an IFR GPS.) But you still need a means of getting back down via an IAP. What uncertified equipment does ILS? That’s the ultimate lifesaver. And to fly the IAPs at say Shoreham you need either a certified GPS (to fly the RNAV ones) or an ADF (NDB02), plus a DME (NDB20).

I wonder if many people realise this fully.

Enroute in Class G you can fly IFR anyway and nobody will catch you

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

The documentation doesn’t make it clear if you can request the addition just night only (and not IMC). I wouldn’t really want to fly the Auster in IMC, but night would be very useful as it would allow a number of day trips to become viable for me from October to March.

Andreas IOM
Avionics geek.
Somewhere remote in Devon, UK.

Posts moved from here

AnthonyQ wrote:

And if the progress towards IFR for homebuilts results in Pan-European privileges

Well, the UK is one of the few places in Europe that specifically restrict non-UK homebuilts to fly day VFR only. It is allowed most other places. With Brexit in mind, I don’t see how that will change anytime soon.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

Most places = Norway

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

Most places = Norway

That’s your view of things. My view is, which a believe is much closer to the truth: Most places = Europe minus UK, minus Germany(but no clear official reference is to be found – only some old anecdotal text here and there with references to old and outdated/nonexistant AIP pages – meaning we don’t care what you do. As long as you file a FP and all your documents and instruments are OK, we are happy)

But tell me. What exactly is the UK CAA to do here? If they allow IFR over UK with a foreign homebuilt, are they going to let the LAA “inspect” every aircraft, every instrument and so on? Only those with “LAA approved” aicraft and instruments are allowed to enter or something? The LAA is no competent authority, they are not even authorized mechanics or maintenance facilities. The LAA is just a gang of enthusiasts.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway
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