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France Homebuilt (looking for advice)

Thanks for your additions guys.

A brief update, in case anyone is interested: I’ve done a little translating from the French, and it looks like the builder and a mechanic did a tear-down inspection of the engine, which is great. They appear to have modernized it in the process, and added fuel injection, which is an added benefit. So I’m not sweating the engine (like I was).

You guys have clearly answered the VAT question, so I’ll simply get as much documentation on parts where VAT was paid as possible. But that is now not a big deal for me. Thank you!

Piotr_Szut wrote:

If you have any EU citizenship, you may leave it F reg, and register it under your name. If not you may request a special permission to register it under your name

Thanks for the info Piotr. (looks like there are a number of Peters piloting here… interesting)
I’m not an EU citizen, just a resident. So it looks like I can count that easy route out… ;(

ch.ess wrote:

Your noise certificate is just one hurdle… (they can be arranged)

Thanks, can you help point me in the right direction for completing this process?

I saw something in French about a yearly test where homebuilders could go to get their aircraft tested, but it was all in French, which was a bit beyond my linguistic skills.

ch.ess wrote:

Still needed a tedious plane and document certification to the tune of approx. €4-5k

Would you be willing to give me an idea of what that process looked like, so that perhaps I could be a little prepared walking in the door?
I’ve already written AustroControl, and have the contact info for “the one guy”, but they were on holiday last week, so I couldn’t bother him.
I’d like to meet with him this week to see if I can start this process.

From an initial response by email, I received the following (the underline is mine):

The technical and legal issues regarding the import of a homebuild, which is not yet accomplished rises many questions. The Airworthiness Notice 22 c “ Musterprüfung, Herstellung, Flugerprobung und zulässige Vervendung von Amateurbau-Luftfahrzeugen in Österreich“ gives you a guideline issued by Austro Control GmbH… http://www.austrocontrol.at/jart/prj3/austro_control/main.jart?rel=en&content-id=1324466980446&reserve-mode=active

A quick search for “22C” on the site provided above will narrow the documents down to a list of 11 documents, which look like they pertain to this process…
Looks like I’ll have to do some more midnight oil burning to get all of those in my head…

The direct link to the document mentioned is: here

on this note, there is a custom prop built by a French manufacturer… looks like that will complicate matters as well…

h Anerkennung ausländischer Herstellung: Die Anerkennung ausländischer Prüfungen von Amateurbau-Luftfahrzeugen ist gemäß ZLLV 2005 nicht vorgesehen. Die technischen Ergebnisse ausländischer Prüfungen können jedoch unter folgenden Bedingungen gewertet werden.
• Ein gleichwertiges Maß an Sicherheit (Umfang und Tiefe der technischen Nachweise) wie
für ein in Österreich erbautes Amateurbau- Luftfahrzeug muss nachgewiesen werden.
• Vorliegen der Nachweise entsprechend Punkte 3g und 3k
• Durchführen einer Einfuhrnachprüfung (§ 40 (1) Z 7,8 ZLLV 2005)
• Fehlende Nachweise (Belastungsversuche, Flugberichte, …) können nachträglich erstellt
werden, sind jedoch Voraussetzung für die Ausstellung eines Lufttüchtigkeitszeugniss

I take it this means I’ll have to execute the check flights again (as these are only documented in the flight book, but not in detail)…

This one is really interesting for those of you who are looking to put an plane into IFR use…

Für Flüge bei Nacht bzw. nach Instrumentenflugregeln sowie für Arbeitsflüge ist die vereinfachte Nachweisführung im Rahmen einer eingeschränkten Musterprüfung nicht ausreichend. Zur Aufrechterhaltung der Sicherheit der gesamten Luftfahrt werden daher für diese Einzelfälle Zusatzforderungen in der Nachweisführung festgelegt.

Which means, in special cases, IFR may be allowed… (but only in one-off situations). The operator would have to prove the airworthiness in IFR conditions (which would mean equipment at the minimum, of course)

Ok, this post is ridiculously long… I’ll stop it for now.

Last Edited by AF at 30 May 21:32

which would mean equipment at the minimum

I think that to fly IFR you do need a certified IFR GPS.

See e.g. here and here and here

I am talking about Eurocontrol IFR in CAS, not “UK style IFR in Class G” where nobody cares what you do; the flight is basically a VFR flight and so are any ATC services provided (more or less)

One day this may change…

For example the UK is running a pilot scheme to allow selected LAA types to be approved for IFR. The details are mostly not public but, from memory and from the bit I know, you won’t need an IFR GPS unless you want to fly IFR in CAS.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

AnthonyQ wrote:

Must have been a hell of a deal AF… There are quite a few reasonably cheap short-body Mooneys on the market in Europe…

Indeed, I bought it for a deal.
For the same price, I could have had an M20C, but then I wouldn’t be able to do any real improvements (think G3X or similar) without paying an arm and a leg.

There are a few major costs to an aircraft that actually matter (as I understand it):
1) Engine + prop
2) Avionics
3) Operation (maintenance, fuel, oil, etc)
4) Fixed costs (hangar, insurance, registration, etc)

1+2 are CapEx, which means they can be amortized into hourly rates. The hourly rates for 1000 hours (because buying a used aircraft will typically result in roughly 1k hrs on it already) means that for the first 1000 hours, operations would look like this:

Engine = 20k
Prop = 5k
Avi = 5k (plan for two instruments to fail, as they are old…)
Ops = 3k/yr = 9gph(34lph) @ 1.35/l
Fix = 4k/yr

So for flying 100 hrs a year, we get (10 yrs):
(20k/1000) + (5k/1000) + (6k/1000) + (3k/100) + (4k/100) + (34*1.35) <— if you can get AvGas that cheap…!
Broken down: 20 + 5 + 6 + 30 + 40 + 46 (fuel)
147/hr

Here’s the figures for the Cozy @ 100 hrs/yr: 20k (2000 hours), 5k (2k hrs), 10k (avionics 2k hrs), 3k (probably less though), 4k, (26.5*1.35)
10 + 2.5 + 5 + 30 + 40 + 36
123.5/hr

Flying 100 hrs per year (faster, (up to 180kts TAS) farther, (up to 1300nm) with the same payload (1000lbs)) I save 2k/year, which I can put toward Fixed costs or Ops.
Not much, but if it takes me 4-5k to get this A/C registered, then it’ll pay off in 2-3 years. (plus I’m flying farther faster, with glass at the same time)

That’s my logic anyway… Please let me know if you see something that’s off there… I’m glad to have reflection.

Last Edited by AF at 30 May 22:19

Hi AF,

So you really were looking for a time consuming hobby, weren’t you ?
The quoted section is problem and solution ;-)
h Anerkennung ausländischer Herstellung: Die Anerkennung ausländischer Prüfungen von Amateurbau-Luftfahrzeugen ist gemäß ZLLV 2005 nicht vorgesehen. Die technischen Ergebnisse ausländischer Prüfungen können jedoch unter folgenden Bedingungen gewertet werden.
• Ein gleichwertiges Maß an Sicherheit (Umfang und Tiefe der technischen Nachweise) wie
für ein in Österreich erbautes Amateurbau- Luftfahrzeug muss nachgewiesen werden.
• Vorliegen der Nachweise entsprechend Punkte 3g und 3k
• Durchführen einer Einfuhrnachprüfung (§ 40 (1) Z 7,8 ZLLV 2005)
• Fehlende Nachweise (Belastungsversuche, Flugberichte, …) können nachträglich erstellt
werden, sind jedoch Voraussetzung für die Ausstellung eines Lufttüchtigkeitszeugnis

So in general – they do not accept anything that any other country has certified.
Only IF you
1. can (by way of documentation) demonstrate that the plane would most likely have been certified under Austrian law, had it been built under the auspices of Austrocontrol
2. have paper-proof that the thing has passed the equivalent of 50 hrs of flight testing
3. have a noise certificate
will Austrocontrol issue a CoA, in turn the basis for registration in OE.
The whole process is a somewhat simplified version of the process that a manufacturer has to go through for a new type/model ;-)

2. and 3. can be arranged for by Austrocontrol certified examiners / engineering firms.
But if 1. is not there, it is near impossible to demonstrate that without pulling the plane apart.

As to the process (I have eventually reconsidered the whole thing in the light of the plane at hand, prior to a deal, and not pursued it) the way it was explained to me – handing in all paperwork that you have in German or English (certified translations if it is in French only). Awaiting requests and arranging for an aviation engineer/examiner to inspect and evaluate plane and documents. Will be more tricky in your case than in mine, because the may or may not have experience with that model (and mine was an Austrian kit)

If you want IFR, the quoted rules have no firm rules, but seem to leave it to the Austrocontrol personnel on a case by case basis,
Can be helpful, if you establish a good relationship from the beginning.

Again, success!

Last Edited by ch.ess at 30 May 22:18
...
EDM_, Germany

Thanks a lot for your overview. This really helps…
I’m looking toward N-Reg now, because OE looks impossible, given the info I currently have available.

However, this looks interesting…
I’m digging through it to find out if there is reciprocity between EASA experimental Airworthiness and FAA airworthiness, because if there is… this should be more straightforward than I thought….

Peter wrote:

I think that to fly IFR you do need a certified IFR GPS.

See e.g. here and here and here

Thanks for the links. Indeed, stepping up to the IFR would mean new glass as well…
Unfortunately, IFR glass is not cheap. :frown:

But that’s second base. I’ve got to get over first base first. :) (hard enough!)
Thanks for the reminder/food for thought.

Peter wrote:

If it is F-reg and you want to go N-reg that may be different – @Silvaire may know the process.

I don’t think you can move an existing F-registered homebuilt to N-registered Experimental Amateur Built. FAA requirements during the construction process apply prior to first flight, for example a builders log to verify 51% original owner built, to which you could not easily comply, followed by a flight test period defined by FAA in the initial pre-flight C of A paperwork.

It may be possible to put the plane into Experimental Exhibition, but that category is divided up into several subcategories into which a pre-existing homebuilt wouldn’t readily fit.

I would try to leave it on its existing F register. Do you really have to be an EU citizen to do so, or just a legal resident?

Last Edited by Silvaire at 31 May 05:25

That’s interesting. So the FAA wants to see it while it is being built.

This is similar to at least some European registrations.

I recall that to transfer a homebuilt to F-reg you need to disassemble it sufficiently to enable a re-build of at least 51% of it. Obviously nobody is going to do that… OTOH in France it’s easier to keep below the radar because you don’t need a transponder for VFR, and nearly all French GA never leaves France, so it works OK. Insurance might be the problem if you exceed the 6-month (or whatever) residence limit though.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

ch.ess wrote:

In the process, I could rule out GB and DE, but got some hope for the Netherlands

I can confirm this. I bought my Experimental in UK (G-reg) and transferred it to the Netherlands as well.
If it’s not possible to stay on the F-reg., I would go for the dutch. You need a representative, checks of static and instruments every second year done by a dutch mechanic, that’s it.

If there are Cozys on the dutch register already (same engine and prop would be even better), that would make things a lot easier for you. However you have a limitation to day/VFR. With that you can fly essentially freely throughout Europe.

EDLE

For Dutch (PH-reg) you need a Dutch mailbox service – see e.g. here (there are caveats to that post – here … the LAA is trying hard to prevent G-regs being based abroad; someone posted a letter from them containing some dodgy stuff but the letter was deleted on request)

Someone posted here recently that there is a commercial service out there, specially for this purpose.

With that you can fly essentially freely throughout Europe.

You do need landing/overflight permits for a lot of Europe. However there appears to be little or no enforcement of this. Some homebuilders avoid Belgium which charges €80 for the permit (don’t recall for how long – a year?) and historically most avoided Spain which replied between months and never. Many just fly and don’t worry about it; I would be concerned about insurance in that case because all aircraft insurance requires the flight to be legal.

I looked up the Cozy. As a canard it will be efficient

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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