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UL/LSA Annex II Advice

Again thank you for your input and apologies for my ignorance.

For an UL/Experimental aircraft national regulation applies!? And are the legal maintenance requirements specified somewhere, probably varying for each nation?

The drawbacks of UL/Experimental are
- cross border flights require prior permission
- hours do not count for revalidation of SEP
- depending on country no night/ifr ops
- not all airports allow UL landings

The pros:
- use of uncertified parts and avionics (cheaper)
- maintenance is easier

Is there a two seater that offers comfort and speed and can be operated cheaper than a certified plane?

always learning
LO__, Austria

hours do not count for revalidation of SEP

IIRC, this was a recent EASA proposal which drew massive protests because eg. an RV owner would have to fly 12hrs every 2 years in some rented spamcan. It had a huge effect on the French aeroclub scene. The thread is here somewhere… I don’t think this will be implemented (for homebuilts; ULs are under different licensing rules).

use of uncertified parts and avionics (cheaper)
maintenance is easier

Very true, subject to the obvious caveats of (a) do you need to buy avionics and (b) can do do the work yourself, in a suitable hangar, etc.

Is there a two seater that offers comfort and speed and can be operated cheaper than a certified plane?

I would recommend visiting Aero Friedrichshafen (in April 2019) and sitting inside a load of planes. Generally, there is no free lunch; light weight = little or no cockpit trim, very thin seats, etc.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Thank you Peter.
UL hours do not count for revalidation of SEP, correct?

There really is no free lunch, sigh.
C172/182 I could get the BRS and even 4 seats, but the design is ancient…and conversion to Diesel is still a risk for the extraordinary expense.

Cirrus is the only one with BRS, modern and comfortable but expensive.

I could live with a non certified two seater if it is fast, comfortable, has BRS, is not burning avgas and can land on typical (not ultra short) grass runways.

I’ll mark Aero19 in my calendar!

always learning
LO__, Austria

Peter wrote:

Very true, subject to the obvious caveats of (a) do you need to buy avionics and (b) can do do the work yourself, in a suitable hangar, etc.

a) it would be nice to be able to install capable avionics at a fraction of the cost
b) no, I wouldn’t do any mx myself.

always learning
LO__, Austria

What is fast?
What is short?
What is cheap?

Last Edited by mh at 14 Nov 22:06
mh
Aufwind GmbH
EKPB, Germany

Snoopy wrote:

For an UL/Experimental aircraft national regulation applies!? And are the legal maintenance requirements specified somewhere, probably varying for each nation?

The drawbacks of UL/Experimental are
- cross border flights require prior permission
- hours do not count for revalidation of SEP
- depending on country no night/ifr ops
- not all airports allow UL landings

The pros:
- use of uncertified parts and avionics (cheaper)
- maintenance is easier

Is there a two seater that offers comfort and speed and can be operated cheaper than a certified plane?

Cross border flight does not in general require prior permission. But, this is different for experimentals (homebuilts) and UL. Experimentals are in general “more free” across Europe than UL. This depebds on where you want to go of course.

Hours in experimentals counts on equal basis as ours on EASA reg (you need a PPL to fly an experimental). Ours on UL counts for nothing, but ours on EASA/experimental counts for UL (in most countries).

Night/IFR: Well, whatever I say here, Peter is going to refute, so I am only going to say what I know 100%: IFR/Night VFR no problems in Norway, Sweden, Finland, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece and some other I don’t remember (Serbia?, Czech ?). I have never heard about anyone running into any trouble whatsoever anywhere regarding this. Experimentals that is . In an UL it is VFR day only.

Airports and UL landings? You have to take this with a grain of salt. The only thing important to the ATC is transponder and radio (they have to be certified) and you know how to use it. There are no other rules at all. They ATC doesn’t care one bit what kind of aircraft you have, they only care that you are equipped and behave according to airspace rules and ATC requirements. There is nothing in any EASA regulations (SERA) saying otherwise. SERA rules here. But an UL (microlight) can be flown without radio, without transponder and without the pilot knowing anything at all about radio procedures, let alone correct radio procedures. People mix things together: ULs are not allowed because … (just nonsense).

On private airfields, the owner can make any “rules” he wants though.

The pros: Everything is cheaper. Typically 1/10 or less than a certified spam can (C-172). No bureacracy (UL in particular), much better performance (experimentals in particular). It’s like night and day. Then again it depends what kind of lying you do, and where you do it to some extent. A TMG is pretty cheap (not a brand new one though), pretty non-bureacratic and pretty much 100% EASA anywhere in EASA land, I think also ICAO. In some respects a TMG is unbeatable. It’s like a hidden and unknown loop hole through it all. I really don’t know of anything you cannot do with a TMG. Full acro, and I think also full IFR (with the correct equipment). If you also got PPL(S) it’s as perfect a flying machine as it possible to get. But, it got long wings, and isn’t exactly fast (an RV is 2-3 times as fast). It depends where you live.

Last Edited by LeSving at 14 Nov 22:45
The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

mh wrote:

What is fast?
What is short?
What is cheap?

Speed: desired 150, accepted 130 (TAS)
Short: 500 Meters
Cheap: I pay 240€/h wet for a DA40, 420€ wet for a SR22. Could rent a Katana for around 150€.

always learning
LO__, Austria

LeSving wrote:

TMG is unbeatable

Do you have an example for a IFR tmg with brs?

Only TMG I know is the Diamond 36 (Super Dimona).

always learning
LO__, Austria

Speed: desired 150, accepted 130 (TAS)
Short: 500 Meters
Cheap: I pay 240€/h wet for a DA40, 420€ wet for a SR22. Could rent a Katana for around 150€.

Take a look at legacy Bonanzas to buy. Pilot & Flugzeug operates one for way less than 200€/h with 150ktas, Mogas, IFR, soft fiel 500m capability and a lot of fun and style. No BRS but you can wear a chute.

mh
Aufwind GmbH
EKPB, Germany

Well, whatever I say here, Peter is going to refute,

No; I just post links to docs with the details, as I did earlier.

In this type of discussion (and it has been run several times already, always with the same result) is it crucial to note that there is a big difference between what you can legally do and what you can get away with. There is a lot of activity which goes on and which is never picked up – basically because ATC is not really interested and it isn’t their job (in most countries). For example, where a permit is required, most people either don’t bother and fly anyway (sometimes at low level, non-radio), or apply for it but fly anyway. Not using Mode S is of course desirable In turn, this is an integral part of the “culture” and whole communities are completely invisible in flight, but it means you have to stay below the radar on those flights; you can’t just climb to FL100 and ask ATC for a transit because the whole world will see you and your aircraft type on FR24 or one of the other sites.

The prospective pilot needs to decide whether he/she wants the ability to (at one end) do overt flights anytime anywhere, or (at the other end) be happy with the ability to take the plane out of the hangar here and there for a quick local with the radio and especially the transponder turned off (or fly with Mode C only). And there are various stages in between, depending on the details.

I fly a certified type although I have often looked at other types – example and my current interest in this in just in ensuring that anyone reading EuroGA is in possession of all relevant information

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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