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Prevent loss of control in GA - NTSB most wanted list

what_next wrote:

That’s maybe what saved you… I quote from Wikipedia: “The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) estimated that the Tomahawk’s stall/spin accident rate was three to five times that of the Cessna 150/152.”

I am aware of the reputation of the PA38 and have never had a problem with that . But whether the PA38 is safe is a totally different debate that has been beaten to death ever since 1978.

LFPT, LFPN

IMHO teaching spins is not a good idea. Spins are not the real risk in flight.

  • you have to stall the plane first
  • you will never stall it enroute (except in rare scenarios e.g. me trying to reach FL210 )
  • you will never spin a plane if you keep the ball in the middle, or anywhere near the middle

The main area by far for stalls/spins is the base to final turn, and the real lesson to teach there is to fly at the right speed IOW “fly by numbers”. IOW, fly the right speed at all times. That approach (no pun intended) is taught at the higher perf end, and it has to be otherwise you will never land the thing. In the PPL C152-type of scene you just go everywhere at 2300rpm or whatever and when you see a runway you close the throttle and land on it

And you will never recover from a full stall/spin on the base to final turn. Not unless you are really sharp, but then you won’t stall in the first place.

Obviously some uncertified designs (Lancairs?) are the exception to the above, but you can’t train for everything. If somebody wants to expand into those areas they need to either keep their speed well up (assume Vs is 30% higher than they say) or go on an aeros course

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Airborne_Again wrote:

IIRC, the rationale for dropping spin training was that more people were killed in spin training accidents than in accidental stall/spin crashes.

In gliders, spin training is required, and always has been as far as I know. I haven’t heard of anyone being killed in glider spin training.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

Aerobatics and spin training gives you a much better overall understanding of airpane aerodynamics and dynamics,

Fact is that “Loss of Control” is still a major reason for fatal accidents, and it is not only the “base to final turn”. The main advantage is that you will KNOW how the plae reacts under certian circumstances. Of course you can have an airplane for 20 years and never get close to a stall, but I prefer to have an idea what the airplane will do in extreme situations.

Not unless you are really sharp, but then you won’t stall in the first place.

How do you get “sharp”?. Me thinks: by training.

Yes – training to fly the right numbers.

Not by slowing down so much the plane won’t fly anymore, and then train a recovery procedure for that.

Especially as most people don’t fly long-term the plane they learnt in. Renters do that, usually, but most renters pack it in pretty soon.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

You wouldn’t want to be prepared for the ONE moment where you make the “big mistake”? Why are loss of control accidents among the 3 main accident reasons when training for the moment you actually lose control makes no sense?

There have been more qualified pilots than (ok, me) who lost control in a situation they could not foresee. In 2015 there were 21 fatals Beech Bonanza accidents, among them a couple of crashes where LOC was a main factor.

Peter wrote:

Spins are not the real risk in flight.

I don’t think that is the point either. The point is to learn how to handle an aircraft in the air. The skill and the confidence gained will make you much more likely to do the right things in case something should pop up from the blue, like an engine failure, a quick last second turn to get around the stone you didn’t see at 1000’. The major point though: it’s fun

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

The major point though: it’s fun

You bet! And I completely forgot that ;-) Although it’s 15 years now that I did the aerobatic course I know that I can recover a normal airplane from any unusual attitude. The professional Czech instructors did this: They let us climb to 8000 ft (Zlin 242) and then we had to close our eyes. The instructor would get the airplane in a spin, steep spiral, turn it around to inverted and stall it it inverted … or even let it spin inverted … and then he’d say “your airplane”. The first 5 were really frightening ;-) … but then we learned how to do it – ad gained a LOT of confidence for our normal flying.

IMHO it was a mistake to remove the spins from the syllabus. On the contrary I would add 3 hours of basic aerobatics to every PPL. Quote

I very much agree. The problem is that basic flying skill development is surrendering to the techy things in the planes, and pilots are poorly motivated to get back to basics.

The point is to learn how to handle an aircraft in the air. The skill and the confidence gained will make you much more likely to do the right things in case something should pop up from the blue, like an engine failure, Quote

Exactly. Spin recovery in and of itself is a lesser used skill. But, the skill to fly to the brink, hold it for a moment, deciding to kick it in or not, and then managing well whatever happens is a vital skill.

All that said, as Silvaire correctly points out, spin training is not prohibited. Responsible pilots will seek it out for themselves, for its own merit, regarless of the regulatory requirements. Basic aerobatic skills are VITAL to make a pilot of well rounded skills.

Home runway, in central Ontario, Canada, Canada

BeechBaby wrote:

have met many instructors who cannot do them themselves, let alone teach a student.

And herein lies the training part of the problem

BeechBaby wrote:

Most spins, and stall incidents, could, and can be, recovered, particularly if caught quickly at altitude.

And herein lies the practical problem – how many high-altitude stall/spin accidents are there? I venture to say none or nearly so. The crossed-controls scenario mostly plays out on the turn from base to final, and no amount of spin training will get you out of the smoking hole in the ground you’re about to dig for yourself.

As an aside – I wanted to do some aerobatic training during my last BFR. Unfortunately it turned out that the Cessna Aerobat available where I fly and rent from could not carry me and an instructor and any reasonable amount of fuel. It’s not as easy as one might think….

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