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Prevent loss of control in GA - NTSB most wanted list

I think we are getting into two separate discussions here. One involves the primary training, the other more confidence for the advanced pilot.

True, and there is a problem with each one.

The first one has a problem in that neither the student nor the school want a more expensive “PPL” on the price list.

The second one has a problem in that very few PPL holders want to pay for yet more training. Most just want to get out there and fly. Some didn’t enjoy the training much anyway – particularly at some disorganised school – and getting out there is a breath of fresh air.

There are no obvious solutions to either.

The first one would need something like this but that has not really worked.

The second one could be addressed by mentoring, but you can’t teach spinning (and aeros generally) informally Mentoring would produce more capable pilots, however. It has been tried but there are too few takers, for various reasons. At the higher end (complex SEPs etc) the insurer tends to require training anyway. But still not spinning, and why should they?

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

The second one has a problem in that very few PPL holders want to pay for yet more training.

No, not for basic training, but additional training after getting the license is another thing. Most PPL holders appreciate taking add-on training that will develop their skills as pilots – be it night VFR, IR, aerobatics or just informal “going places” training in a club.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Most PPL holders appreciate taking add-on training that will develop their skills as pilots – be it night VFR, IR, aerobatics or just informal “going places” training in a club.

I am sure we would all like to think that, but from where I am standing it isn’t exactly evident.

Most PPL holders don’t fly anything – they packed it in more or less right away.

The remainder hang in there, mostly constrained by a variety of factors (money, time, money, wife having sprogs and tightening the screws, money… ) and just a small % are people with time and money who can drop 10k at some advanced training outfit which will show them how to spin their SR22 or whatever. And spinning in a C150 Aerobat is of little use if you fly an SR22.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

If you want to spin an SR22 you will likely have to drop more like 200k. ;)

Peter wrote:
The second one could be addressed by mentoring, but you can’t teach spinning (and aeros generally) informally Mentoring would produce more capable pilots, however. It has been tried but there are too few takers, for various reasons. At the higher end (complex SEPs etc) the insurer tends to require training anyway

The concept of mentoring is an interesting one. As an FI and Examiner, my initial reaction is total horror as I can see all the human factors pitfalls laid out in one, a recipe for bad habits to be promulgated, serious cross-cockpit gradient and PIC confusion issues and great potential for the over-confident (but incompetent) to get a vehicle to spread problems. However, on the other hand I can readily see how it can supplement the formal training scene and be a real confidence and competence builder for a whole variety of post-PPL skills.

I’m not sure what the answer is, I think some kind of controlled scheme (like AOPA tried) was probably the best solution but I think the liability issues have effectively killed it off.

Now retired from forums best wishes

172driver wrote:

I think we are getting into two separate discussions here. One involves the primary training, the other more confidence for the advanced pilot.

It’s a discussion mostly based on non-facts in my opinion, and without touching the real question. The real question is why do you fly, and to what extent does safety play a role. The answer to the last part of the question is on the face of it self evident – none. If safety did play a major role, you wouldn’t fly around in a light airplane, you would take the airline or the train. On a closer look, it is a bit more complicated and closely tied to the first part of the question, because airline or train are generally no substitutes.

I can only speak for myself. I fly for fun, and I also like the physics and technical aspects involved just as much. As to safety, it is only a concern as long as I have an understanding of the actual risks, and I’m in control of those risks. Regarding the topic of loss of control, to me that means nothing (and I really mean nothing at all) unless I have explored what loss of control is all about, and more importantly – what can I do to obtain more positive control. This stuff is dead simple. If you want to prevent loss of control, the only way is to get a better grip of control. You will not prevent loss of control by loosening that grip, and I find it somewhat weird that there seem to be professional pilots here that advocated that. The reason can only be that those pilots are not really in control of the risks themselves, others and special systems are, and as such this has no relevance to flying a light aircraft.

Except training to get a better grip. there is only one other method to get a better grip, and that is to install some fool proof fly by wire system that positively prevent a pilot from messing up. Such systems have been around for decades, but is of course way too complex and expensive in a light aircraft today and in the foreseeable future. A chute could save your skin in case of loss of control, but not when flying low and slow, as in take off and landing.

As with aerobatic training, the point is you get a better grip of control and also an experienced understanding of what loss of control actually means. For me, that is the only thing that works, and no one can tell me it isn’t. But, the fun part cannot be dismissed either

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

LeS, nicely put. Rich Stowell (his book Emergency Manoeuvre Training is a worthwhile modest investment), has said ‘a lot of pilots learn to fly within a bubble that is much smaller than the airplane’s operating envelope’.

The low and slow departure from controlled flight can be so insidious, and so surprising, that it reminds me of Bertrand Russell’s slightly over quoted reflection on a chicken: ’’The man who has fed the chicken every day throughout its life at last wrings its neck instead, showing that more refined views as to the uniformity of nature would have been useful to the chicken.”

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

Thank LeSving for explaining what i think that nicely :-)

@RobertL18C
That’s a good sentence, thank you for sharing it.

One day I’ll maybe be outside that envelope, and i for one would like to know WHAT NOW? then ..

Last Edited by Flyer59 at 17 Dec 07:20

I think some kind of controlled scheme (like AOPA tried) was probably the best solution but I think the liability issues have effectively killed it off.

My views on the liability issues are here

IOW, I believe the “liability” issue which AOPA UK went on about were a liability on them, resulting from them acting as an “introduction agency” for mentors, which also does implicit mentor vetting But they could not openly admit this.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Balliol wrote:

The concept of mentoring is an interesting one. As an FI and Examiner, my initial reaction is total horror as I can see all the human factors pitfalls laid out in one, a recipe for bad habits to be promulgated, serious cross-cockpit gradient and PIC confusion issues and great potential for the over-confident (but incompetent) to get a vehicle to spread problems.

That is a very good point. But it comes down to in which form the mentoring is performed, and whether it is formalised. It does not need to consist in accompanying the protege on flights, and it does not need to be formalised. Giving some helpful hints, encouragement, telling stories about your own experiences in a nice and not patronising manner go a long way. Inviting less experienced pilots along on a flight may also help.

I am convinced that a pleasant club atmosphere, providing a place to hang out with lush couches, a coffee machine, a place where people would drop in just for a coke and a chat makes a huge difference. Unfortunately I have not encountered that since I was a member of NRF at ENKJ in Norway.

edit: I am way off the original topic here

Last Edited by Aviathor at 17 Dec 12:44
LFPT, LFPN
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