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Pros and cons of de-icing systems for a VFR pilot looking at IFR later

As a low time PPL, with aspirations to do my IR in my own plane, should I consider de-icing equipment and if so, what?

LFMD - Cannes

Oxygen, turbocharging and deicing, it’s all nice hardware for IFR and these items have been discussed extensively. You could consider it, there are certified systems (FIKI) and non-certified systems that help in case of an emergency but do not allow for flying in known icing conditions. Anti-ice usualy mean less payload en less speed. I wouldn’t fly into known icing with a SEP anyway, but it could prove usefull when icing does occur.

Given the choice I would at least arrange for a decent oxygen set, it allows you to climb above ice. A turbocharger allows you to do so faster.

Last Edited by Bobo at 25 Nov 09:53
EHTE, Netherlands

If you want to do the IR in your own plane, then you should have an airplane with either de-icing boots or the TKS system.

Even if you almost never need it – and that’s the way IFR should be flown in an SEP – it is still a big safety factor. I needed my TKS 2 times in 2.5 years of IFR flying with it now, and one time was over Greece … in June.

As Peter permanently demonstrates it can be done without anti-ice (TKS) or de-ice (boots), but I guess he will support my opinion that you gain safety and flexibility with such a system.

WHICH one of the two systems you will have depends on the type. With the Cirrus it will be either the “normal” TKS or the “Known-ice” version (FIKI, Flight Into Known Ice). FIKI systems are available from later SR22-G3s, all older models have the more simple system which can help you get out of icing conditions (quickly). IMHO it’s a pretty good system for private pilots who don’t need it often. I was a professional, or flew my SR22 on business all the time, especially in the winter – I’d hate it with a passion though, because the fluid is really expensive (20 l between 150 and 200 Euros) and because it’s a mess.

If you are serious about IFR and want to spend up to € 200 K, and for the profile you mentioned, I’d buy an SR22 (that’s why i have :-)), a B36 Bonanza, a Piper PA32 Saratoga (one of my favourites), a TB20/21, a Mooney (Ovation, Bravo) or a nice C-210. But most of these will be older. The maybe BEST piston airplane for IFR might be the Piper Malibu or Malibu Mirage: pressurized, strong, great cabin. 200 K don’t buy one though.

There’s a reason actually why normally aspirated SR22s of the G2 version (2004-2007) are so hard to find. They will do most of what you want, they’re fast, have TKS, modern avionics, and many have upgrades like the DFC90 autopilot (I’d convert every older SR22 to that A/P), oxygen. Some have air condition (and a lower load). I can send you a SR22 model history. About the other types … there’s specialists here for anything.

The next discussion will be: Turbo or non-turbo. For me (!), weekend and private IFR pilot the non-turbo (“NA”) vesion of the SR22 is fine. I can always fly another day, or stay home. In reality I have done all flights i wanted to do. One time I had to fly in IMC for 2 hours though – where a turbo version could have climbed on top. If you are serious about using the plane for business, a turbowill give you more possibilities (check Stephan’s posts) … but you also need MUCH more experience to fly safely in FL250 than in FL 150, IMHO. I for one don’t like to fly that high, it carries much additional risk, and I would never (never) do it with the kids on boad, for example. But there’s other opinions too

Last Edited by Flyer59 at 25 Nov 10:02

Let me move my link

http://www.optair.com/archives/6861

‘Most pilots could use a lot more experience with simply staying out of the clouds in the winter. Flying VFR at 1000 to 1500 agl isn’t dangerous if one knows how to read a chart and stay away from the towers. Mountain obscuration is a no go, so one has to make sure there’s a way over the top or between layers in those areas. If not, find another way around or wait for better weather. But I’ve flown from Detroit to Minneapolis at 800 to 1200 agl the entire way (no mountains!), under a thick overcast full of ice. I went around the south end of Chicago, I stayed away from flying low over cities, I dodged a few towers along the way. And I had a tailwind, great visibility and a nice ride, whereas there was no staying on top across that entire route on that particular day. The stuff was solid up into the teens and twenties, and it wasn’t trace or light – it was moderate and worse. A FIKI bird would not have made that trip any other way either.’

I think that is the most relevant section of that article. It is funny, because when I do that, fly at a lower level, something nags at me that I should be higher, and yet, sense states. fly lower…

Fly safe. I want this thing to land l...
EGPF Glasgow

That is my opinion too. In the winter I many times have preferred to fly VFR in 1000 ft AGL, over flatlands anyway, because IMHO it’s much safer than the flight in icing conditions.

In the summer, VFR, I fly as high as they will let me. I know that I can always get below the clouds somewhere, but a flight in FL90 or 120 (if they let me) feels safer to me. Less traffic, better visibilty, more time and range in case of engine failure.

If there’s no imminent danger of iceing and if I know that the instrument approach will be within my limits, I fly IFR. Because it’s much easier to plan and to fly, and because it will get you down even in bad conditions in which VFR is not possible.

Each one of use has developed strategies. And while they can be different, and they are, it’s more important to have a plan than to do what others do …

Last Edited by Flyer59 at 25 Nov 10:11

That of course is the main theme, a strategy, built on experience to date, with the kit , and equipment you have. It is the classic, go/no go scenario, that the correct decision taken pre flight, with ALL of the information at hand, may well determine if your day is well and truly ruined, or not, as the case may be. It is interesting, that in recent months, there have been a true spate, of high performance SEP crashes, with many fatalities, which, pre report, appear to have very strong links to being weather related. For the uninitiated reading here – Nowt wrong with the aeroplane.

Last Edited by BeechBaby at 25 Nov 10:25
Fly safe. I want this thing to land l...
EGPF Glasgow

I remember when I first had the Cirrus and was standing at the airport, inscure if I should go .. or stay. It was a cold day with a solid ceiling in 2000 ft AGL and I actually had wanted to go IFR. But i could not get a feeling for the extension of the clouds and I was unsure if I’d mske it on top. … And then it dawned to me: “Hey, I can safely cross all of Germany VFR today”.

That sounds so banal, but it’s an important step to make. To select the right tool for the situation. I DO KNOW guys who would never fly VFR and who would rather risk to get themselves in an unsafe situation, simply because their egos will not let them make a safe (“amateurish”) VFR flight. They will not fly their € 500.000 SEP VFR!

There’s many psychological traps like that in flying. Anybody who has been at a far away airport with his family on a Sunday, knowing there’s “school tomorrow” knows what I mean, and it takes a LOT of discipline to say a) fxxx school or b)“I’ll take you to the train and I’ll come tomorrow”

Last Edited by Flyer59 at 25 Nov 10:33

Flyer59 wrote:

If you want to do the IR in your own plane, then you should have an airplane with either de-icing boots or the TKS system.

Even if you almost never need it – and that’s the way IFR should be flown in an SEP

That would be my thinking. The best de-icing strategy is to stay out of ice, but as you say that is impractical. My only experience with carb icing was on a warm, sunny evening in the UK.

On the other hand Neil said on another thread that de-icing will reduce the range of possible a/c. I see that as a feature, not a bug. There are way too many options out there. I need to find some non-arbitrary way to reduce all those choices and TKS de-icing seems like one way to reduce the number.

LFMD - Cannes

The name of this thread is a contradiction!

If you are legally VFR, you cannot get structural icing. That happens only below 0C and in IMC.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

This is an interesting article about the “known-ice” certification of GA planes … (I still think that the FIKI system adds safety to a Cirrus, but I am also sure that this additional safety is overestimated many times. Others might do it, but I stay away from ice always.

http://macsblog.com/2011/02/the-silliness-of-icing-certification/

I would say a normal (boots or TKS) system is all you should need, even as an IFR pilot. Of course if you find an airplane with “FIKI” certification (which you will not for 200 K), there’s no reason to complain.

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