I think the permission for an out-of-90-days pilot to carry a pilot passenger who is current on that aircraft type applies to UK Licence holders in UK registered non-EASA aircraft in the UK airspace.
Not EASA licence. Not EASA aircraft.
It’s several years old.
tschnell wrote:
If your “here” is EASA-land and we are talking about SPA’s, this is definitely not true. The legal PIC is the only one able to log PIC-time for a flight (apart from flight instruction). See AMC1.FCL050
I meant that the same applies here as I wrote a couple of lines above, i.e. exactly what you are saying: there is one and only one pilot who is PIC and he can log PIC time. I don’t think there is a difference between the definition of PIC in EASA and FAA, it’s always one person.
Vladimir wrote:
I meant that the same applies here as I wrote a couple of lines above, i.e. exactly what you are saying: there is one and only one pilot who is PIC and he can log PIC timeThen I got you wrong, sorry.
I don’t think there is a difference between the definition of PIC in EASA and FAA, it’s always one person
That is correct, but in FAA-land there is a difference between acting as PIC and logging PIC-time. One can log PIC-time without being legally PIC, and the legal PIC might not be allowed to log at all.
tschnell wrote:
See AMC1.FCL050
No. See the rules established by the relevant competent authority.
Copied from UK CAA pdf dated 13/2/2016:
@vladimir
I meant it is stupid that under easa, even if two pilots are onbord a single pilot plane, only one is considered a pilot and the other a passenger. Under faa, the second pilot could be a safety pilot for ifr training under the hood etc… I understand the part about not logging pic time if two pilots share a c152, but why not log it as co pilot time as was the case pre easa. Technically, if I don’t have the 3 to/ldg in 90 days, I couldn’t go flying together with a friend who holds a license because under the law he’d be a pax. I deem it safer to take a second pilot with me than doing the 3 to/ldg alone if I haven’t flown in some time. That’s what I meant with „Stupid!“
Concerning pic time:
Under faa there is a difference between „being“ pic and logging of pic time. The airline captain is pic and logs it as pic time. The first officer if pilot flying may also log this flight as pic when at the controls. In practice this „at control“ pic time is noted in a separate column of the logbook and not claimed for airline applications/ hour requirements. It is however useful for fulfilling faa hour requirements towards ratings and certificates.
Concerning long flights:
Under easa, as you said, there is only one designated pic and he logs pic time even when sleeping in the bunk. That is a nice rule in theory (logging heavy jet hours while sleeping) but it is actually pretty idiotic. In case of a deviation/violation whoever was sitting in the left seat will be the one facing the consequences. Which judge would throw the book at someone for busting a flightlevel when the person was on his assigned rest sleeping in a bunk 40 meters behind the cockpit? Notably: For the duration of his break the pic designates a (suitably trained as required by the authority) relief pilot to act as his deputy and to be the one in charge. This poor guy can’t log any pic time though, which isn’t right in my thinking.
Easa should get rid of relief pilots substituting for the captain. The airlines don’t want that though because teo captains on a long flight cost more… money over safety – unheard of in the airline industry (sarcasm).
Ibra,
As far as I know, any 3 to/ldgs will count as long as you do them, you can legally fly that flight and no passengers on board, bear in mind you also need separate 1 to/ldgs to take pax on night flying
The condition of “legally fly[ing] that flight [with] no passengers on board” goes beyond what the regulation states. Point FCL.060(b) could be fulfilled by a pilot whose medical certificate has expired so long as another pilot acts as PIC.
Vladimir,
[The FAA CFI] is PIC, you are DUAL and perform the landings. You are not a passenger and you carry out your landings → you have the landings to take passengers after this flight but you write the flight with the instructor as DUAL. In my opinion this is completely legal.
Again, this is an over interpretation of the regulation. The capacity of the pilot attempting to satisfy FCL.060, except for balloons, is not specified and as such they may be a passenger. It is irrelevant whether the PIC happens to hold a US flight instructor certificate.
Separately, on a single-pilot aircraft in an operation regulated by the Basic Regulation an instructed person is deemed to be a passenger unless the PIC holds an appropriate instructor certificate or authorisation conferred by or in accordance with the Aircrew Regulation or an exemption made under the Basic Regulation.
US-registered aircraft are subject to an equivalent requirement, that is, a person is deemed to be a passenger under US regulations when being instructed or examined by a non-US instructor or examiner.
Snoopy,
The CFI gave me my flight review in an N-Reg SEP. I did not log it as pic but I was pilot flying and did three to/ldg. Am I current again under EASA fcl 060?
Assuming you also carried out the approaches then you’ve done what the regulation requires in order to act as PIC while carrying passengers.
Maoraigh,
I think the permission for an out-of-90-days pilot to carry a pilot passenger who is current on that aircraft type applies to UK Licence holders …
Yes, the recent experience exemption made in schedule 8 to the Air Navigation Order 2016 applies to privileges exercised under a United Kingdom pilot’s licence.
… in UK registered non-EASA aircraft in the UK airspace.
Not EASA licence. Not EASA aircraft.
All correct except that a UK pilot’s licence may be used, for the time being, at the LAPL privilege level to pilot a UK-registered EASA aircraft (aeroplanes, helicopters, or TMGs) in accordance with General Exemption E 4707 (ORS4 no 1269).
Also UK pilot’s licences are accepted under art 148(3)(b) of the ANO for non-commercial operations in non-EASA aircraft registered in other than UK (ie third country aircraft). If UK leaves EU the principle of primacy of EU law will cease to block the enjoyment of this privilege in UK airspace by operators resident in UK regardless of whether UK remains an EASA Member State.
I think the permission for an out-of-90-days pilot to carry a pilot passenger who is current on that aircraft type applies to UK Licence holders in UK registered non-EASA aircraft in the UK airspace.
Not EASA licence. Not EASA aircraft.
It’s several years old.
That was what I remembered, and I recall seeing a proposal to change this. In fact I recall @bookworm writing about it, several years ago, somewhere… It is silly to require a pilot regaining his passenger carrying privilege by having to do solo flights. Allowing a qualified pilot in the RHS is much better risk management.
The wording in both the regs and the AMC/GM have been the same since part-FCL was published in 2011.
That must be something unrelated.
@Snoopy and @Qalupalik: I agree that some rules are not the best and don’t want to defend them, just trying to understand them (which, to be honest, is quite a task and if you throw in the requirements for different ratings, it becomes almost impossible).
Snoopy wrote:
I understand the part about not logging pic time if two pilots share a c152, but why not log it as co pilot time as was the case pre easa.
There is a definition for “co pilot” which is the second pilot in an airplane which is certified to be flown by a crew of more than one person. The C152 does not satisfy that condition. Dual is also not correct because it is logged when the other pilot is an instructor instructing you. So in EASA there is no “column” for that function. Would be good to have one.
Snoopy wrote:
The first officer if pilot flying may also log this flight as pic when at the controls.
Not in EASA. The first officer logs “copi” (and can add a remark “PF” or “PM” depending on their function) unless they are already experienced and preparing to become a captain. In the latter case they log PIC but it is marked as “PUS = PIC under supervision” and it does count as PIC time for the requirements of becoming a captain in the airline.
And one more thing, I recently talked with a captain in an airline who told me that when two captains fly together they always both log PIC because otherwise they would have a hard time explaining why they were “downgraded” if they apply for a new job. Airlines should know better that two captains fly together sometimes. Anyway, this is surely not how it is legally defined, but they do it and nobody can catch that, especially the authorities as they don’t have a cross check against any other system. At least that is the current situation but it might start changing soon…
Vladimir wrote:
Not in EASA
Why I wrote „..under faa…“. Vladimir wrote:
always both log PIC
