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Spanish Lancair 360 "IFR Certified"

I agree… but that’s true for a lot of aviation.

You could fly a plane with a fictitious reg number very easily – it’s been done, and I have done it by accident, with a typo when filing a flight plan. Flew across Europe with it. And if operating from a farm strip or keeping it in a discreet hangar most of the time, likewise. Or with no license. Nobody ever looked at my license, and it would be trivial to avoid going to places where somebody might.

Insurance is the issue. That is the “dark cloud” which you can never be quite sure of, which way it will swing.

I am not sure about risking a ramp check though. The checker would have to be really unbriefed. Any plane spotter with an IQ over 20 and who flies on AVSIM (or whatever it is called – the virtual flying community) will know this stuff. One of my instructors claimed to have an ATPL and fly a PC12 for Amex, carrying PIN numbers in a secure suitcase. Everybody knew he was a wide boy but nobody could be sure. But a friend of mine who is in ATC and is a keen plane spotter knew right away this was a fake because the reg number given was not a PC12, the airport he flew to doesn’t have PC12s, etc. The only thing which could not be checked was the ATPL – only in the FAA system could this be checked. The thing a ramp checker would not know is whether you obtained the permit (I bet there is no central or even a national database – it’s just a paper trail deep inside each CAA, and if you obtained one permit so you had a template and photoshopped the next one…) but a Eurocontrol IFR flight would be dead easy to check and any plane spotter working in the tower would see you coming the instant you filed the FP – unless you used a fake aircraft type which can fly IFR and which looks similar, and then he would spot it when you land there.

Most people will think it’s fun and not say anything, but you need only “the one”

I have an FR24 alert on various homebuilt types to see if they fly obvious or probable IFR and over a year or so have seen 1 possible+rare type and 1 definite+regular type. However the latter is probably legal because he is doing the regular Eurocontrol IFR flights along a route whose 3 or 4 airspace owners have no known regulation on this, and his basic permit includes IFR He is either exceedingly smart (and reads EuroGA) or he just happens to be lucky. He always departs and lands VFR, which would help to obfuscate it. Also there is zero chance of getting ramp checked at either end of where he flies to.

I keep an eye on this situation w.r.t. the Lancair Evolution. Currently this plane is useless in Europe, if you want general IFR capability, don’t have a discreet hangar and especially if you are a well known individual.

IMHO, it’s one thing if you buy a plane out of your “play” budget, but if you are more deeply invested and care about insurance (as you IMHO should) then you need to be verifiably legal.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

huv wrote:

Flying and filing IFR in an IFR-equipped-looking (but not IFR certified) aircraft, what are the odds of getting caught? even in a ramp check?

Except for the fact that it is perfectly legal most places. There is nothing called “IFR certified” either, there is no such certification. If the equipment and instruments are set up according to NCO and airspaces (AIP), you are good to go (with the correct rating).

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

huv wrote:

Flying and filing IFR in an IFR-equipped-looking (but not IFR certified) aircraft, what are the odds of getting caught? even in a ramp check?
I suspect you could fly IFR for years without any (formal) problems, unless you draw attention in some unfortunate way, e.g. an accident.

I met a chap who had flown his SEP IFR for several years without an IR. He was caught (I don’t know how but it wasn’t an accident). He paid the fine, got an IR and subsequently several type ratings. He still flies and is VERY good.

Darley Moor, Gamston (UK)

LeSving wrote:

There is nothing called “IFR certified” either, there is no such certification.

Not for experimentals, perhaps, but for normal category there definitely is.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Airborne_Again wrote:

but for normal category there definitely is.

No The CAA made this perfectly clear a few years back, particularly since this is a common misconception among private pilots. See here. Third paragraph. In Norway, no such certification exist at least.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

For certified aircraft, approval (or more accurately non-disapproval) for IFR operations seems to depend on the aircraft type. Some type certificates and flight manuals (if an AFM or POH exists) say nothing on the subject of VFR and IFR, meaning that IFR operations are fine if the required equipment is installed for the type of airspace. Other type certificate data sheets are more explicit, and might say something like this: “This airplane must be operated as a Normal or Utility Category airplane in compliance with the operating limitations stated in the form of placards, markings, and manuals”. Then in the POH placard listing you might find this one, to be displayed on the instrument panel: “LImited to VFR Day and Night”

My read on the above is that some certified aircraft types are not legal for IFR operations, regardless of how equipped. This situation seems to apply more frequently to non-US built and newer-built aircraft but is a different issue than the approval of individual aircraft for IFR operation that is apparently required in a small number of countries.

For FAA homebuilt aircraft, the operating limitations on an individual airframe explicitly state what cannot be done. I’m not aware of any such aircraft limited to VFR except by the equipment installed. In some European countries I understand the operating limitations for the individual airframe may well include such an explicit IFR limitation. Or are there ‘types’ of homebuilt aircraft in places like UK, limited by sub-ICAO national ‘type’ paperwork?

Last Edited by Silvaire at 28 Mar 23:40

LeSving wrote:

No The CAA made this perfectly clear a few years back, particularly since this is a common misconception among private pilots. See here. Third paragraph. In Norway, no such certification exist at least.

I was referring to type certification, not certification of individual aircraft. If you look e.g. at CS-23, you will see that a type is certified for different operating conditions (day/night VFR, day/night IFR) and that not all requirements for night VFR or IFR are equipment-related.

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 29 Mar 08:00
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

That is a different issue, as Silvaire explained. An aircraft may very well be restricted to VFR only by the manufacturer. The point the CAA was making is that they do not certify aircraft for IFR. An aircraft may have no restrictions (Typical US made light aircraft), but if you actually can fly IFR or not depends on the instruments and equipment installed, and it’s the pilot who has to decide for each trip. An old C-172 with ancient non-op avionics is obviously not OK for IFR. but that does not mean it is “not certified for IFR” and needs to be somehow “certified” to be able to fly IFR again, it only needs the correct avionics.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

LeSving wrote:

That is a different issue, as Silvaire explained.

I know it is a different issue, but from your posting

There is nothing called “IFR certified” either, there is no such certification.

it was not at all clear what you meant, since — as both Silvaire and I pointed out and you now seem to agree with — there definitely is something called “IFR certified”.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Homebuilts can fly IFR if

  • the original permit does not restrict to VFR (e.g. N-reg ones usually don’t, G-reg ones usually do), AND
  • it is equipped to the airspace requirements, AND
  • the owner(s) of the airspace(s) don’t explicitly prohibit IFR in a non-CofA

Furthermore, the meaning of “IFR” can vary, which affects the practical capability. With formal Eurocontrol IFR you would want to be legit because you will be very obvious. With UK-style ad-hoc IFR in Class G, nobody can tell when you are enroute. And, probably, you can fly an IAP in “relative” VMC legally… this is an old Q which has AFAIK never been settled (“does flying an IAP mean you are IFR?”).

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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