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Standard/Non-standard altitudes in cross country VFR flying

Airborne_Again wrote:

Nothing stops you…

Well, flying over terrain you can be at 6000 feet AGL, then 500 feet AGL a few seconds later, then “-500” feet AGL after that again. But the way we do when planning x-country is to look at the map, use the highest terrain marked within a square on the map (also on SD), then add 1000 feet. This is the minimum cruising alt across that terrain, much like VFR N or IFR (but you don’t always cruise like that). IFR flights in uncontrolled airspace have no such AGL restriction according to SERA (5025 a). For an IFR flight it is 3000 feet above mean sea level and up together with minimum flight alt over terrain.

This 500 feet difference between IFR and VFR is of course to separate VFR from IFR in uncontrolled airspace in particular (in controlled airspace ATC rules in any case). Then SERA doesn’t do a very good job IMO. I can’t remember we had this 3000 feet AGL limit pre SERA, but could be wrong of course. I have never used such a thing. besides, AGL in respect to what exactly for a route? (mean, highest, lowest, always the current ?)

In practice, Bosco is right. There are clouds, vis and CAS that prevents these levels to have a practical meaning most of the time. They aren’t available. But, when they are, that’s what you aim/plan for at least, AGL or not

Peter wrote:

Even more of these are non-txp…

I can’t really understand why people would be non-txp (unless it is a garden chair variety microlight with no transponder, glider or something). It is illegal not to turn on the transponder for one. It’s an odd behavior. A couple of weeks ago the club had a “fly out”. Back home we took off one after the other rather close, all had filed FP, and all opened it when in contact with Norway control at approximately 4000 feet. In G, still way into the mountains, Norway contacted me to tell me a Lancair is coming from behind and would be at my 3 o’clock. Turned my head, and there he was about 100-200 feet to my right I mean, it can’t be simpler than that (or more fun), but a transponder is needed to make it work.

Later, when approaching ENVA, the approach took over, and finally the tower. There were other traffic as well, lots of CAT and a few helicopters. Not a single moment was colliding an issue. Not a single moment was infringing an airspace an issue. I didn’t think about it at all. On the ground we had a small laugh and comments about the female ATC person in the tower, she is rather “decisive and direct” in her voice, and tells you load and clear if you deviate just a tad, and what she thinks about that deviation, which one of us did (not me this time). But, it’s all part of the fun as far as I’m concerned. My point is, if we fly and do the things we are supposed to do, things run smooth and nice, and we all have a great time.

Peter wrote:

The UK, south east in particular, has one of the highest densities of GA in Europe.

Is there any CAT there to speak of, I mean scheduled flights? I have never seen high density GA to cause any problems, except at fly ins where things can get a bit overcrowded every now and then.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

The 3000 ft agl feature of the rule allows you to cross high elevation terrain in cruise at e.g. 2000 ft agl, regardless of altitude, when the service ceiling of the plane restricts climb rate above that height.

In Germany most traffic seems to still adhere to the old national regulation whereby 2000ft AGL was the minimum cross country cruising altitude, and most GA traffic is more or less exactly at that level.

The only time I ever flew “standard altitudes” was during PPL training, where we once cruised at FL55 eastward and FL65 westward. Transition altitude is 5000 ft in Germany. It is rare for VFR traffic to fly in the flight levels.

Personally I feel more at ease the lower I fly. I know this is irrational, but the closer the ground is, the less I feel overwhelmed by the vast nothingness of the air around me…

Low-hours pilot
EDVM Hildesheim, Germany

but the closer the ground is, the less I feel overwhelmed by the vast nothingness of the air around me…

Have you considered driving?

EGKB Biggin Hill

Transition altitude is 5000 ft in Germany. It is rare for VFR traffic to fly in the flight levels.

Says who ? Flightschools and typical bimbling takes place low. Plus island hopping from Lower Saxony ;-)
If you want to get somewhere, FL75-95 are quite helpful…
Usually calmer conditions, often above cloud level
Staying above airspace C of smaller airports (e.g. EDDN, EDJA)
Less random traffic of ULs and airwork to avoid.

It may only be a smaller percentage, but it is anything but “rare”.

...
EDM_, Germany

Ha ha.

There was actually a thread about this phenomenon a while back:

https://www.euroga.org/forums/flying/3924/post/64985

I feel fine at 2000ft. I assume the “uneasy” feeling higher up is mainly due to lack of exposure. Same with higher bank angles etc.

EDIT: David expressed it better than I in the linked thread:

I used to feel much more comfortable at 1,000’ (or less) than I did at 10,000’, particularly when solo or without another pilot on board. I know it’s counter intuitive and therefore irrational, the altitude generally bringing more time to resolve issues, better glide range, and a much smaller chance of hitting anything, be it ground based or airborne etc.

I think there was something about being far above the ground that made it feel like an alien environment where I had “no right” to be (physically, not legally).

Last Edited by MedEwok at 17 Aug 18:31
Low-hours pilot
EDVM Hildesheim, Germany

Silvaire wrote:

The 3000 ft agl feature of the rule allows you to cross high elevation terrain in cruise at e.g. 2000 ft agl, regardless of altitude, when the service ceiling of the plane restricts climb rate above that height.

If I get this right. Lets say your service ceiling is 10000. You fly west at 8500. Terrain comes creeping up (5500 feet and higher) and the AGL feature allows you to fly at anything between 8500 and 10000 as long as AGL is 3000 feet or less? Kind of makes sense. Flying IFR, you are not allowed to do that (according to SERA at least), which makes a bit less sense, but I don’t fly IFR, so don’t care Odd, this AGL thing has passed me by completely.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

LeSving wrote:

If I get this right. Lets say your service ceiling is 10000. You fly west at 8500. Terrain comes creeping up (5500 feet and higher) and the AGL feature allows you to fly at anything between 8500 and 10000 as long as AGL is 3000 feet or less?

Yes.

Flying IFR, you are not allowed to do that (according to SERA at least), which makes a bit less sense, but I don’t fly IFR, so don’t care Odd, this AGL thing has passed me by completely.

Well, not unless the competent authority has said that you can.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

ch.ess wrote:

If you want to get somewhere, FL75-95 are quite helpful…
I fully agree. Even flying in general class C at FL110 or FL120 VFR is not an issue, I did it last Friday from Austria to Egelsbach again without any issue. I asked Zurich Information above Bregenz to climb and after passing Friedrichshafen, they send me off to Langen Radar. I’ve never been refused in general class C so far in Germany, I just avoid asking around Frankfurt, Munich or Zurich. At lower flight levels, it is more difficult to get an approval for class C or D, due to glider activities, airdropping or traffic, so FL100+ is more ‘safe’ in my opinion on longer distances.

German ATC likes to approve VFR traffic in class C in full (IFR) flight levels, because if they approve FL65 in class C, FL60 and FL70 are blocked for IFR-traffic. They also don’t care about the semi-circular rules, they just approve the levels which are most suitable and clear of traffic.
Last Edited by Frans at 18 Aug 12:32
Switzerland

LeSving wrote:

If I get this right. Lets say your service ceiling is 10000. You fly west at 8500. Terrain comes creeping up (5500 feet and higher) and the AGL feature allows you to fly at anything between 8500 and 10000 as long as AGL is 3000 feet or less? Kind of makes sense.

Yes, that and there being a lot of aircraft climbing and descending (negating the otherwise reduced collision potential) are two reasons why VFR cruising levels would have less value below 3000 agl.

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