Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

Upgrade from E-IR to CB-IR or B-IR: how much effort

A basic home sim doesn’t cut it, IMO, because you need a setup that allows you to train flying a procedure in IMC, with no ‘outside’ reference. Such as an ELITE S812. Which means a darkened room, with a ‘real’ model aircraft cockpit (i.a. PA28), an exchangeable faceplate for standard or glass instruments, and otherwise no reference to the outside. This is not the real thing, but good enough for training. And even if the FNPTII doesn’t physically move to simulated acceleration, it can train your instrument scanning.
So it comes down to 216 for 1 or 2 approaches or 150 for many more, incl. flexible adaptation to your learning needs, and not to mention the weather.
https://www.flyelite.ch/en/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/FlyerS812FNPTII.pdf
FlyerS812FNPTII_pdf

Last Edited by EuroFlyer at 27 Nov 12:40
Safe landings !
EDLN, Germany

For learning procedures, any IFR sim will do fine.

Obviously realism helps but FS2000 (year 2000) was perfectly fine, IME. With a £10 stick

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

A basic home sim doesn’t cut it, IMO, because you need a setup that allows you to train flying a procedure in IMC, with no ‘outside’ reference.

Easy, something like MSFS2004 and wx set to overcast from ground to fl300. No outside reference.

I understand your point though and again, I agree. We had weeks of „needles only“ training in a Frasca 242 and when starting actually flying had enough capacity built up.

No moving map. And a paper plotter. While certainly good for mental capacity, many things drilled in this box one never used again and the skills fade again.
I fully understand this doesn’t appeal to someone learning IR to fly in a G1000 or better equipped plane
though. I wonder if CB IR training should put more emphasis on real world IFR and aeronautical decision making.

The modern Elite I have access too isn’t really much better than this Frasca Antique above.

Last Edited by Snoopy at 27 Nov 13:17
Freelance IRI / CB-IR Instructor
LOWG | Worldwide

All IR training should put more emphasis on real world IFR and aeronautical decision making in my opinion, regardless of whether this is conventional IR or CB IR or conversion from EIR or BIR etc etc etc.

The problem is that you still have to train people to pass the test. When I did my IR LST (within the last decade), I was required to point to point navigation without a GPS, which for the test involved plotting radials and distances on a wizz wheel and then doing some jiggery pokery to find a track, and spinning the wheel round so that I could check if I was on track correctly based on meeting certain DMEs on certain radials. Is this real world IFR? Of course not. Have I ever even thought about doing it again since? Of course not. However, if my instructor(s) had have given me the best real world training, making sure I had perfected all the skills required for any realistic eventuality of A to B IFR flying, I would have failed my IR test by not being able to do the wizz wheel jiggery pokery.

United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

For learning procedures, any IFR sim will do fine.

Obviously realism helps but FS2000 (year 2000) was perfectly fine, IME. With a £10 stick

If the CB/IR test is something similar to IR(R), then I concur – it really helped me to prepare for the IR(R).
The idea is not just KNOWING where every switch etc is, but how the aircraft behaves, how quickly the needles move at certain intercept angle etc – for a student it help to understand how the Navs behave and help to use the hours to actually practice…

EGTR

My comment was just about learning IFR procedures.

Both the IR(R)/IMCR and the full IR needs the pilot to be able to fly any plate which you stick under his nose

But the two checkrides are different; the former is done with a school examiner (and being a UK rating can be done by the same person who trained you). The latter is done with a CAA staff or “industry” examiner and there is a “protocol” which you need to know (for example I was supposed to pretend to look out of the window every 1000ft in climb and say “ice check, no ice” and you pay about £800 for it

There is absolutely no point in going flying to train IFR until one can fly any IAP on the sim. Up in the air, most of the brain is gone and one isn’t learning anything much. Once over 50 one is learning nothing at all

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

This must be some UK thing.
Never heard of such practices.
The IR practical exam is according the check form in the fcl.

Freelance IRI / CB-IR Instructor
LOWG | Worldwide

From what I hear, a lot of variation around Europe on the IR test.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Snoopy wrote:

I fully understand this doesn’t appeal to someone learning IR to fly in a G1000 or better equipped plane
though.

Oh, in that respect I couldn’t agree more. The reason I mentioned the Sim was for training purposes only. I totally agree that it‘s critical to fly in a real plane (ideally the one you’re flying yourself) in real IMC. The Sim doesn’t prepare you for that, and there are even IRIs who don’t like to fly in IMC in a small plane, especially in the winter.

Safe landings !
EDLN, Germany

Peter wrote:

Both the IR(R)/IMCR and the full IR needs the pilot to be able to fly any plate which you stick under his nose

Is an IR(R) holder expected to fly SIDs and STARs?

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top