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When can you descend on a STAR?

That’s makes sense, I’m just a bit puzzled by the ATCOs comment. I will look carefully through the regulations tomorrow.

ESME, ESMS

Peter wrote:

All very country dependent.

I have never heard the above one.

Well.. The UK uses a lot of non-standard phraseology like “pass your message”, “traffic service”, “squawk conspicuity”, “freecall” etc. which are neither in SERA nor in the international standard (PANS-ATM).

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 08 Jun 06:55
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Sure, but those are not in the “IFR system”. They are silly VFR-traffic stuff. That varies all over the place e.g. in France “radar contact” = “cleared through all CAS ahead, unless we change our mind (but not RAs)”

Dimme’s question is serious because IFR is supposed to work the same way everywhere.

If you are assigned STARx/SIDx then you are supposed to follow the vertical profile too.

Just like when “cleared for the [xxx] approach” you are entitled to descend immediately to the platform.

The UK is not different in these. What is (or may currently be; working UK ATCOs almost never participate on forums, except to beat somebody up, because beating people up does not fall foul of NATS social media policy ) different is that UK ATC avoids the use of these terms until after they have issued explicit descent or climb instructions. I am pretty certain lots of other countries do exactly the same, because it removes the ambiguity.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

Sure, but those are not in the “IFR system”. They are silly VFR-traffic stuff. That varies all over the place

SERA phraseology covers VFR as well.

If you are assigned STARx/SIDx then you are supposed to follow the vertical profile too.

Just like when “cleared for the [xxx] approach” you are entitled to descend immediately to the platform.

The UK is not different in these.

No, but the question was about the case where you are given an altitude restriction on the STAR and then ATC wants you to maintain that altitude until intercepting the glide path, rather than descending first to platform altitude. According to RobertL18C, the phraseology used in the UK is “descend with the glide slope”, while the phraseology according to SERA is MAINTAIN (assigned altitude) UNTIL GLIDE PATH INTERCEPTION, which is certainly not ambiguous.

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 08 Jun 07:33
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

I am pretty sure that “descend with the glide slope” will (in the UK) always be preceeded by an explicit descent to the platform.

The reason I’m asking is on a recent flight, I was instructed to “intercept the STAR and maintain 4000 feet,” followed later by an instruction to “descend to 3000 feet” and “clear ILS approach.”

The last bit is a clearance to descend to the platform.

Yes one does sometimes get late intercepts. I’ve had them in various places. Some in France, some UK, sometimes they forget “cleared for the approach” and then you have to fly through the LOC.

Like I said, I’ve never heard

MAINTAIN (assigned altitude) UNTIL GLIDE PATH INTERCEPTION

anywhere, UK, or anywhere else. How new is this?

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

How new is this?

A quick googling for old versions of PANS-ATM found the 1996 version (called PANS-RAC then) and it included that phrase.

As regards SERA, it didn’t include phraseology at all until 2016.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Peter wrote:

If you are assigned STARx/SIDx then you are supposed to follow the vertical profile too.

No. I was specifically warned by ATC that assigning STAR/SID didn’t necessarily mean you’re allowed to follow published profile. Altitude is assigned in separate clearance.

Last Edited by Emir at 08 Jun 09:19
LDZA LDVA, Croatia

Emir wrote:

No. I was specifically warned by ATC that assigning STAR/SID didn’t necessarily mean you’re allowed to follow published profile. Altitude is assigned in separate clearance.

You’re supposed to follow the published profile down to the cleared altitude.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Great discussion. Maybe an ATCO can enlighten us? @atmilatos

ESME, ESMS

Some ATCOs give progressive descent instructions which are usually not needed.

Sometimes this takes place when the ATCO feels that the pilot is unfamiliar with something or when he just wants to know (maybe in order to time things for a slow mover or because he wants to know what’s going on).

Some airline pilots on the other hand may ask, after being cleared for an approach starting from a published initial altitude, if they are cleared for the procedure’s vertical profile as well, which is also not needed most of the time (used to happen a lot for some rnp approaches).

Usually a clearance to the ac for the initial altitude of the app (ie at the end of a star or via a dct) and then for the app itself is all that’s needed.

LGMT (Mytilene, Lesvos, Greece), Greece
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