Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

So, I just got my FAA IR ticket, but I am ignorant..

(Please note this is not a thread about the legality of flying IFR on a FAA certificate in EASA airspace.)

As soon as I came back from the USA, I tried to file my first IFR flight plan and I realised that the rules are very different from the US.
So, I have many questions which probably deserve their own thread. Here are some of them:

- As far as I understand, any IFR flight plan has to be approved by Eurocontrol. I have used autorouter to test some FPL and it looks that only routes following published airways are valid. This restriction sometimes leads to huge overhead.
So, is there a way to file DCT in controlled airspace between 2 points which are not linked by an airway ?
- Suppose you are on a VFR flight and you encounter unforecast weather. Can you pick up a clearance even if you are not along an airway?
- Again, on a VFR flight you reach your destination which is overcast. Can you request a clearance for an instrument approach ?
- I understand “I” FP are transmitted by eurocontrol to the relevant parties. Is this also the case for “Y” and “Z” FP ?
- How do you pick up a clearance on a “Z” FP ? upon departure? With the last ATC before you go IFR?
- on a “Y” plan, does your FP automatically get cancelled at the point indicated in your plan or do you have to specifically tell ATC that you are now going VFR?

LIAP / LIBP, Italy

aquila wrote:

is there a way to file DCT in controlled airspace between 2 points which are not linked by an airway ?

Depends upon the restrictions set by the national authority for a specific region. For example, there may be some sort of restriction stating that maximum distance between two DCT points is 40nm in FL050..180. Or Maximum distance between two points is 0nm (which translates into “no directs”). When you try to validate the plan you can decipher the error messages to understand where directs are ok and where not, it is given in plain text.

aquila wrote:

I understand “I” FP are transmitted by eurocontrol to the relevant parties. Is this also the case for “Y” and “Z” FP ?

So far I only have experience with V flight plans in this respect, and as far as my flights are concerned only the state of departure and the state of arrival gets the V flight plan. E.g. VFR flight from Germany to Croatia, neither Austria nor Italy have the flight plan. On a flight from Germany to Spain France is blind, they know nothing, not even whether it is IFR or VFR.

Germany

Hi Aquila, let me try to help out from a practical perspective (leaving the legalities out of it, I have an EASA IR and am not all that familiar with the FAA system any way…)

aquila wrote:

- As far as I understand, any IFR flight plan has to be approved by Eurocontrol. I have used autorouter to test some FPL and it looks that only routes following published airways are valid. This restriction sometimes leads to huge overhead.

Whether you use autoroute or one of the many paid tools available that work well (Rocketroute works best for me but that is personal preference) you will get routes that carry overhead. This does not, automatically, mean that you will fly that. It is my experience ATC are far less proficient in dealing with significant volume of aircraft. In particular if you have flown in NY airspace or any other significant US Bravo where they will route planes much closer to each other and mix jets with light GA far more efficiently. Don’t despair, if deemed possible and often without request, more direct routing is provided in the air.
aquila wrote:

So, is there a way to file DCT in controlled airspace between 2 points which are not linked by an airway ?

Yes that is what the entire PBN is based on, some countries are further along the route of getting rid of Airways, such as the UK, unfortunately the UK comes with its own very specific set of challenges resulting directly from ATC attitude and competency. the UK is also no longer part of EASA and seems to ’’invent’’ their own set of rules including the need to try and cancel IFR for you. Don’t let them…
aquila wrote:

Suppose you are on a VFR flight and you encounter unforecast weather. Can you pick up a clearance even if you are not along an airway?

It is a lot less common, but yes it is possible and if really needed one can get a ‘’pop-up’’ IFR and an IAP. The bias in Europe is however a lot more on correct flightlplanning, if you try and do this and get a little cute with the system too regularly. I am convinced (my opinion) you will start getting questions about you flight preparation. Potentially in a more ‘’official way’‘. If you are filing a flight plan you always have the opportunity to file a Z plan. (not if you’re Russian and entering the Ukraine ;-) sorry bad joke)
aquila wrote:

- I understand “I” FP are transmitted by eurocontrol to the relevant parties. Is this also the case for “Y” and “Z” FP ?
- How do you pick up a clearance on a “Z” FP ? upon departure? With the last ATC before you go IFR?

All flight plans are transmitted the same way as soon as they have an IFR element in them. You pick up clearance delivery mechanism based on the field of departure, if there is a tower (but it’s uncontrolled) they can sometimes arrange for a pre-clearing via the phone. They basically call up and provide you your clearance, sometimes (as is the case in Annecy, you phone Chamberry for clearance if the tower is not active) and get cleared like that. Or you do a free call in the air remaining VFR (though @Ibra will tell you – and I’m not arguing it’s wrong) that you can legally fly IFR in class G so you’re also allowed class G IFR take-off. From my home field I remain VFR and pick up on free call in the air but I am in the midst of the mountains and departing IFR is stupid here… ;-)
aquila wrote:

- on a “Y” plan, does your FP automatically get cancelled at the point indicated in your plan or do you have to specifically tell ATC that you are now going VFR?

Your IFR flight plan becomes a VFR flight plan unless you ask the ATC unit you’re in touch with to close both for you. If you just cancel you will get asked for an ETA at your arrival field and will be requested to call on the ground to close it.

My 2 cents – as I said PRACTICAL IFR advise, in no means advise on what is or isn’t legal.

LFHN - Bellegarde - Vouvray France

LFHNflightstudent wrote:

that you can legally fly IFR in class G so you’re also allowed class G IFR take-off

My understanding it’s the case in US as well,
- On IFR takeoff from un-towred airports you will be in Golf until 700ft
- Part91, US allow IFR in Golf without flight plan and clearance FAR91.173
- Part91, US allow uncontrolled IFR departures in zero/zero weather

The US does not show Echo airspace on map and it’s everywhere, so it’s impossible to be outside controlled airspace to start with…it’s Part135/121 Captains who never been in Golf and get twitchy or spooked by flying in IMC not talking to anyone, same advice for Part91 pilots who can’t distinguish between Echo/Golf on VFR map: remain VFR until cleared for IFR

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.173

§ 91.173 ATC clearance and flight plan required.
No person may operate an aircraft in controlled airspace under IFR unless that person has -
(a) Filed an IFR flight plan; and
(b) Received an appropriate ATC clearance.

Last Edited by Ibra at 27 Jun 15:40
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

@LFHNflightstudent that is in my experience a pretty succinct and accurate post.
There are just a couple of things I would add. If taking off from an AFIS airfield such as LFRI La Roche Sur Yon they might be unable to get your IFR clearance so will give you something like contact Nantes on 124.xxx after take off controlled airspace starts at 5500ft QNH xxx.
Secondly, although I have not experienced it in France so far, sometime if you are filing an IFR flight plan with VFR sections it the VFR parts will not be addressed to the appropriate ATS unit.
You need to check this with whichever service it is that files your plan.
There is a very good description of what happens in the UK AIP.

France

LFHNflightstudent wrote:

All flight plans are transmitted the same way as soon as they have an IFR element in them.

AFAIU that’s not how it works. Y and Z plans will be transmitted to Eurocontrol just like I plans, but Eurocontrol will only process the IFR parts. For the VFR parts, Y and Z plans have to be transmitted the same as V flight plans. Of course, most flight planning software (capable of submitting IFR flight plans) and all AROs will handle this for you.

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 28 Jun 07:16
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

aquila wrote:

How do you pick up a clearance on a “Z” FP ? upon departure? With the last ATC before you go IFR?

I have this issue a lot in the UK, as I often depart from a farm strip on a Z FPL. In my case I need to be cleared into the London airspace around Heathrow etc to start the IFR part of my flight after takeoff.

I have found that if I want until airborne and then radio one of my two local controlled airports (Oxford or Gloucester) to ask them to coordinate with London for joining instructions I will often end up flying low level in circles for up to 20 minutes desperately waiting for the clearance. This is both harrowing, dangerous and burns needless fuel.

Much better to (very politely) call the tower at the airport an hour before takeoff, explain what I will be wanting to do. This gives them a chance to pull up my flight plan. I then call again from the cockpit when ready to start and they will coordinate clearance, entry to controlled airspace and instructions for handover to London before I even get in the air.

Re leaving IFR on a Y plan, this doesnt happen automatically, but is rather the result of a request by you when you are ready, or a question from ATC. Its no sweat normally.

Upper Harford private strip UK, near EGBJ, United Kingdom

AFAIU that’s not how it works. Y and Z plans will be transmitted to Eurocontrol just like I plans, but Eurocontrol will only process the IFR parts. For the VFR parts, Y and Z plans have to be transmitted the same as V flight plans. Of course, most flight planning software (capable of submitting IFR flight plans) and all AROs will handle this for you.

Yes the above is how it works. IFR FPs go to Eurocontrol via some VPN interface (which isn’t free). AFAIK with Z Y the filing agency has to transmit the whole FP via the AFTN, or via whatever method exists for FPs. Eurocontrol processes just the IFR part and won’t forward the VFR part to the various addresses. It does however AFAIK send the “end” to the “end” airport(s) and this is normally enough because few people care about the VFR route.

any IFR flight plan has to be approved by Eurocontrol. I have used autorouter to test some FPL and it looks that only routes following published airways are valid. This restriction sometimes leads to huge overhead.

I am just picking up this small point, which is not correct although it will often feel that way. You can file DCTs and they will validate. See e.g. here.

is there a way to file DCT in controlled airspace between 2 points which are not linked by an airway ? [ my bold – an important criterion ]

I think you have to do that with DCTs, and that is possible only in airspace where the DCTMAX parameter is not zero. For example (see above links) in N France the DCTMAX was, last time I checked, 10nm, presumably to frustrate Brits trying to get back home from the middle of France, where the Channel has no published routes pointing north.

Suppose you are on a VFR flight and you encounter unforecast weather. Can you pick up a clearance even if you are not along an airway?

Yes, if ATC wants to be helpful. But beware – popup IFR clearances can take time, say half an hour, and this delay has been complicit in many fatal crashes (but of course ATC can never be blamed because “the pilot left it too late”). In the UK popups into Class A are almost impossible.

Again, on a VFR flight you reach your destination which is overcast. Can you request a clearance for an instrument approach ?

This is normally easier than above because there is less coordination involved. But you should be organised if this is a risk; for example EGKA-LFAT, VFR, you can just change straight from EGKA TWR to LFAT TWR. But if there is a risk of needing an IAP then you are better off filing it IFR (5000ft in case case, all OCAS) and then you call up Lille who can give you an IAP. That is actually quite a funny example because UK OCAS, VFR=IFR for all practical purposes, no clearance, but France will treat you as proper IFR. This shows the use of IFR as a tool, just in case it is needed. It’s like if you are going to break into a house to steal something, and you know the door is usually unlocked, you might carry a crowbar just in case it is locked, and filing IFR even on a nice day is the crowbar

How do you pick up a clearance on a “Z” FP ? upon departure? With the last ATC before you go IFR?

Yes, you have to call up and request an IFR clerance. They will know already since they see your FP.

on a “Y” plan, does your FP automatically get cancelled at the point indicated in your plan or do you have to specifically tell ATC that you are now going VFR?

This varies. Often ATC don’t care and just let you carry on IFR (which, usually is what you wanted, because most IFR to VFR changes are done to hack the validation system ). Sometimes they remind you, in which case you can decide what you want. Sometimes they will say you have to cancel IFR because you are below their MVA, etc. The actual FP is not closed until you land.

Never cancel IFR without a good reason because ATC is then entitled to send you to VRPs and other junk stuff and that can really screw you up because usually only the locals know where these are.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Ibra wrote:

My understanding it’s the case in US as well,
- On IFR takeoff from un-towred airports you will be in Golf until 700ft
- Part91, US allow IFR in Golf without flight plan and clearance FAR91.173
- Part91, US allow uncontrolled IFR departures in zero/zero weather

The US does not show Echo airspace on map and it’s everywhere, so it’s impossible to be outside controlled airspace to start with

Technically it is true, a clearance is not required for IFR in class G airspace, but as a practical matter it can’t be done, at least anymore as almost all of the G airspace above the surface higher than 1200 AGL has been eliminated in the CONUS. Class E is shown on sectional charts by boundaries, either blue or magenta and shaded lighter towards the included side. Blue is for E begins at 1200 AGL and Magenta is for E begins at 700 AGL. So you need a clearance to enter E airspace before you enter.
So the practice in the US is to receive the clearance via phone or radio prior to departing an airport that is class G to the surface and in addition, one must receive a departure release.

At one point in the past, there were academic discussions in places where large areas of class G did not end until 14500 MSL It was technically legal to fly IFR in class G without a clearance. One could depart an airport, climb to an MIA and fly to another in the G airspace, but without an approach available at the destination, you needed to be VFR at the MIA to complete the flight. Exiting the class G airspace and entering E airspace required a clearance. These areas of class G extending above 1200 AGL are for all practical purposes gone and one can’t loiter in the climb below the MIA in class G, as class G operations are only permitted when required for takeoff and landing. There was a case where a pilot departed in class G in less than VFR conditions and climbed to above the overcast in class G rather than waiting for his IFR clearance. The pilot was cited for a 91.155 VFR violation and a catch all 91.13 careless and reckless. He was convicted and had his pilot certificate revoked on the 91.13 charge, but not on the 91.155 charge.

KUZA, United States

So the practice in the US is to receive the clearance via phone or radio prior to departing an airport that is class G to the surface and in addition, one must receive a departure release.

It’s exactly the same in France & UK, you can fly IFR in Golf but practically you need flight plan in the system and for obvious reasons of traffic management in airspace you also need to phone or radio to get “IFR release” or “IFR start up on ground” or “IFR start up airborne” or “IFR join” or “IFR slot” or “IFR info” if you ever intend to fly IFR in controlled airspace…there are other names for this (e.g. release, activate, clear, climb, transit, join, start, mise en route, flight information service)

People confuse the above with IFR clearance in Golf (this does not exist) or with VFR/IFR switch clearance in Echo (well one is already in controlled airspace)

There was a case where a pilot departed in class G in less than VFR conditions and climbed to above the overcast in class G rather than waiting for his IFR clearance.

Again he is in Golf, he does not need IFR clearance to depart & fly Golf as per FAR, he still needs IFR clearance to climb in controlled Charlie, Bravo or Echo above his aerodrome

I have read that letter, he entered Echo under IFR at 700ft agl, that is a violation of FAR, you will get punished for that in UK & France as well under SERA, if one enter UK Echo with 2000 on transponder (uncontrolled IFR squawk code), they will lose their licence straight away

Recently, I have asked for IFR clearance at 5kft to punch through Echo airspace from Farnborough ATC, I was IFR before on 2000 with London Info, I could have done it VFR on 7000 on transponder without clearance but I was in IMC in & out of clouds, being a very cautious pilot: I asked for my IFR clearance to transit those bits of Echo airspace by telling Farbrough ATC that I am going to be in IMC very soon inside his controlled airspace, he helped me by issuing the IFR clearance to enter/exit green bits of Echo airspace while some nearby clouds were around !

I think, it would not have been ok or legal under VFR, it was IMC all the way as it was impossible to establish 1.5km & 1kft separation from clouds, the ATC did a brilliant job giving that pop-up IFR clearance to transit under IFR from Golf to Echo and everything went fine.

Having said that, I could see two VFR targets with 7000 on transponder on TCAS and PilotAware signal in that airspace at similar position & altitudes, apparently, the majority of VFR pilots in UK don’t have a single clue what is Echo airspace as it’s rare !



Last Edited by Ibra at 28 Jun 13:57
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom
29 Posts
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top