EASA/UK approved ATOs outside Europe, and acceptance of EASA/UK training done outside Europe

Ibra wrote:

plus cancel load of them due to UK weather

Don’t UK ATOs teach IR students in actual instrument conditions? I did a fair bit of my FAA IR either at night or in actual.

DavidC wrote:

This is a good outfit – I have visited their base at Sebastian in Florida – but while they do EASA PPLs, their IR training is almost exclusively FAA. I heard they have had a handful of CBIR students from time to time but no student has completed a course. They would be more suited to providing the FAA IR which is later converted in Europe using the CBIR route, avoiding the need to take the EASA CBIR theory exams. They have applied to EASA to become a third party/foreign approved ATO. I don’t know their long term plans for their UK office at Gloucester.

I guess just their ability to provide a full FAA & EASA services plus crystal clear path from IMCr to FAA IR to EASA IR without having to do any EASA TK exams, but I can’t see anyone with CBIR TK exams going there?

Overall it’s more expensive route to CBIR but admittedly far more fun: spend a whole weeks flying in Florida (=vacation) rather than taking off-work holiday weeks (=no vacation) then having to “book hotel + approach + instructor + aircraft” everyday, plus cancel load of them due to UK weather

I was disappointed by the FBO service for ad-hoc rentals but I would have gone training with them !

@Qalupalik I bow to your ability to navigate this!
Me too – I had looked for but not found the first reference, and the second really takes some close inspection.
Thanks for quoting that.

Wherever the skill test is held, it is generally best to have some familiarisation with the local procedures, approaches etc. plus some local instruction by someone who knows the particular emphasis/preferences of local examiners. The UK also remains one of the most expensive places to take the skill test with its high test fee. I’ve heard of at least one UK ATO which is outsourcing the EASA IR training/test to a foreign partner elsewhere in Europe.

These guys do EASA IR in the US but they used to do IR skill-tests in “EASA airspace” somewhere in Glocs or Essex, not sure it this will change?
https://pilots-paradise.com/easa-instrument-rating/

This is a good outfit – I have visited their base at Sebastian in Florida – but while they do EASA PPLs, their IR training is almost exclusively FAA. I heard they have had a handful of CBIR students from time to time but no student has completed a course. They would be more suited to providing the FAA IR which is later converted in Europe using the CBIR route, avoiding the need to take the EASA CBIR theory exams. They have applied to EASA to become a third party/foreign approved ATO. I don’t know their long term plans for their UK office at Gloucester.

@Qalupalik I bow to your ability to navigate this!

An interesting finding but may not be used for an Integrated course? I can see IR schools in the UK adapting to a modular approach, however the bias by airlines for integrated graduates is a real bias.

Peter wrote:

Perhaps the 30hrs “freelance time” in the CB IR is not restricted to EU territory, and nobody noticed?

Since these hours can be done outside of an ATO and the EU territory restrictions are in part-ORO which only applies to the ATO and not the instructor, I would say, no, it is not restricted to EU territory,

These guys do EASA IR in the US but they used to do IR skill-tests in “EASA airspace” somewhere in Glocs or Essex, not sure it this will change?
https://pilots-paradise.com/easa-instrument-rating/

There is no general rule requiring the IR skill test to be conducted in an EASA MS. The closest reference is a conditional rule in Part-ORA. This rule will apply to the UK-based ATOs whose approval EASA will issue next year.

—

ORA.ATO.150 Training in third countries

When the ATO is approved to provide training for the instrument rating
(IR) in third countries:

(a) the training programme shall include acclimatisation flying in one
of the Member States before the IR skill test is taken; and

(b) the IR skill test shall be taken in one of the Member States.

—

The full course credit for the CBM IR could provide a workaround. Appendix 6 to Part-FCL, section Aa (emphasis added) does not require the IR skill test to be conducted in an EASA MS:

—

8. Applicants for the competency-based modular IR holding a
Part-FCL PPL or CPL and a valid IR issued in compliance with the
requirements of Annex 1 to the Chicago Convention by a third country
may be credited in full towards the training course mentioned in
paragraph 4. In order to be issued the IR, the applicant shall:

(a) successfully complete the skill test for the IR in accordance
with Appendix 7;

(b) demonstrate to the examiner during the skill test that he/she has
acquired an adequate level of theoretical knowledge of air law,
meteorology and flight planning and performance (IR); and

(c) have a minimum experience of at least 50 hours of flight time
under IFR as PIC on aeroplanes.

—

The UK CAA does not require these candidates to be in possession of a course completion certificate or a recommendation for test. This point is made repeatedly in the UK Flight Examiners’ Handbook.

Note to para 2.2.1:

Note: applicants for the IR or EIR who are credited in full with the
theoretical knowledge training and examinations and flight training on
the basis of holding a valid IR issued in accordance with the
requirements of Annex 1 to the to the Chicago Convention, and who have
not undertaken training at an ATO prior to test, will not be in
possession of training records, a course completion certificate or a
recommendation for test.

Note in table A3 A:

Examiners are advised that applicants for a Competence Based IR,
credited in full with the Part-FCL training requirements and who have
not received training at an ATO, are not required to have a course
completion certificate and recommendation for test. Additionally, they
might not be able to provide certified evidence of competence to fly
on limited panel instruments using a rate gyro.

Appendix 1 pre-test para 1:

Notwithstanding the previous statement, applicants for an IR or EIR
skill test credited with the Part-FCL training requirements on the
basis of holding a valid IR issued in accordance with the requirements
of Annex 1 to the to the Chicago Convention, that have not received
training at an ATO, do not require a course completion certificate or
recommendation for test.

From here

Slightly different question to raise. I understand (but can’t find the specific legal reference) that EASA IR skill tests must be flown in an EASA member state, so that from 1st Jan 2020 anyone wanting an EASA IR can no longer do that in the UK. Many (approx 30) commercial ATOs will be approved by EASA to operate as third country ATOs in the UK, probably almost immediately, and so could train for the IR but it makes most sense to do that training (or at least that last part of prior to test) at the airport you will be tested from. Many students may be perfectly happy with a UK issued CPL/IR, such as those from outside Europe including the Middle East.

I’ve witnessed really busy activity in recent weeks from UK commercial ATOs with intensive use of approach training slots and am wondering if some of this will tail off next month or not. It’s also been exacerbated by ATOs returning their fleets from Spain etc. and conducting more of their basic PPL/CPL training in the UK, which I can’t see changing. Students and instructors will no longer freely move around and work abroad, hence the consolidation. I have no idea what impact that has had in the training airports such as Jerez in Spain or Ponte de Sor Portgual.