Hi Guys,
First post here. Got my PPL about a year ago, and am looking a bit around for further training.
I loved the steep turns in PPL training, love rollercoasters, and back when I flightsimmed with a VR goggle, I loved flying an Extra. So Im thinking, well, why don’t I get my aerobatics rating. But I also love to fly through controlled bits of airspace, doing all the RT. So that IR rating is also on the bucket list.
Aerobatics planes are hard to rent in my vicinity. So you’d have own one to keep training. Despite being not profitable, it it is an option for me… And you can still fly it cross country. You cant do loops and barrel rolls (legally) in a C172… But as I am learning more and more about aircraft maintenance, type certificaties, and so on, it seems that most smaller aircraft, including aerobatic planes, are vfr only by type certificate… offcourse I could still rent a C172 to fly IFR, but you also have to make a decent amount of hours on your own machine, just to keep the engine in good shape (standing still means rust…). The question is if there is enough free time left for renting a C172 and do IFR flying to keep myself proficient…
So now I start to question what would provide me with the most fun and motivation to keep flying? It looks like they both (aerobatics and IR) are a bit mutual exclusive, given realistic time constraints for a hobby pilot, and lack of rental aerobatic planes?
Of course I will still go get the aerobatics rating. Its probably an experience by itself. But what do you the other recreational pilots around here think? How do you combine keeping an aerobatics and instrument rating current, given rental or ownership constraints? If not able to keep both current and proficient, what do you like the most?
If you want touring and gentle aerobatics, the RV homebuilt series is a great option. As has been detailed in (far too many) threads here, it is basically not legal to fly them IFR around Europe, but let’s say that discretionary VFR is performed by many on a regular basis with no problems.
Irrespective of this, doing aerobatics and tailwheel ratings will significantly improve your flying and aircraft handling abilities, making you a safer pilot.
IFR, touring and aerobatics in one aircraft is a bit too much of a stretch. You will have to priorities two of the three options. There are few IFR certified aerobatic aircraft, some of the Bolkow Monsun series fit this however they are not the most spritely performers aerobatics wise. Not sure on other options.
There are few IFR certified aerobatic aircraft,
Marchetti SF-260. Also the Extra 3xx can be IFR, though not really a tourer in its DNA.
The design intent of the RV series is an aircraft that can go places VFR and IFR, plus do aerobatics. All
of the above is done every day with RVs. The restriction on IFR is a European thing.
Having said that and assuming you’re restricted to certified types, in addition to the SF260 and some of the Extras, some Citabrias and Beechs and even the Cessna Aerobat are aerobatic as well being IFR capable, and also a lot of aerobatic types FAA certified in the 60s or before – before IFR certification existed.
@IO390, the Monsun is not IFR certified if operating on the EASA TC, and only a few late serial number examples are currently aerobatic certified.
The solution to your problem is the F33C aerobatic Bonanza :-)
Wow, a lot of suggestions, thanks guys! The F33C is even a 4 seater aerobatics :D Although I suspect the POH will say this or that about approved maneuvers…
Some suggest the extra, but both the 330LT and the NG state in their EASA type certificate it is Day VFR only. Despite the NG having a nice IFR Garmin IFR GPS in the newer iterations (and even autopilot), it doesn’t have pitot heat, cockpit lights nor landing lights, so I get the why… The Sf260’s type certificate provides a little more leeway: “in its current configuration” its day VFR only…
Anyway, I’ll do some research into the suggested models.
But the other part of my question: given that its difficult to combine both (available planes, time, …), what does make more sense as a hobby pilot, both safety and motivation-wise? Pursuing a bit of aerobatics, maybe competing for fun and giggles in sportsman category, etc, and of course still flying VFR XC, not only to get to that aerobatics contest? Or just keep flying XC for the 300€ coffee, but adding an IFR rating to be able to do it more, and learning a bit more about aviation procedures along the way? What skill will add the most safety? The stick and rudder skills learnt from aerobatics, or the blind flying skills from IR?
JohanP wrote:
What skill will add the most safety? The stick and rudder skills learnt from aerobatics, or the blind flying skills from IR?This is an interesting question, I’ll argue that stick and rudder skills are always useful, IFR skills are only useful for flying VFR when you failed to remain VFR in the first place.
Or you want to be at a certain place at a certain time, you simply can’t do that with VFR alone, neither legally nor safe.
Have you considered joining a syndicate for one or the other? I own my plane for various reasons (there is a discussion about the advantages of ownership around, I believe) but in my opinion, aerobatics is one of the things where one could make do with schedules. It’s probably the same with IFR travelling with the family.
Then you have the best of both worlds without too much commitment to either one – and never underestimate the amount of maintenance and care for your own plane, it’s easier when it’s a good group. On the other hand, we also had mostly scary discussions about syndicates. I propose you should read these threads if you consider this route.
There is also the option to do glider flying – they all can do aerobatics to some extent although pure aerobatic gliders do it better, the stick and rudder skills are superior in the first place as an engine that doesn’t work is not unusual – and you can get a cloud flying rating (also limited to certain gliders/equipment).
All this should add a lot of safety for any VFR pilot. That reminds me that I wanted to tackle these things at some point.
There is a table of EASA IFR certified aircraft that can be bought new (at least in theory) here: EASA Certified IFR Aircraft
It is from a couple of years ago, so might not be completely up-to-date, and of course it doesn’t cover planes no longer in production, but it looks like there are only two on the list that have aerobatic capabilities:
Waco YMF-5 and Zlin 242L
I learned a lot from doing my aerobatics course after my PPL. And it was a lot of fun.
On my PPL I never got to try spin recovery. We tried in a C172 but it would not get into it.
Aerobatics gives you an extra certainty on how the plane acts in unusual situations and how to handle it.
IFR gives you precision. I love both.
Inkognito wrote:
IFR skills are only useful for flying VFR when you failed to remain VFR in the first place.
Well, IFR is much more than just flying blind. IMO that’s the least difficult part. The other things you learn about precision, planning ahead, R/T, multitasking… are useful also for VFR. Of course you don’t have to actually take an IR to learn that.
