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The EIR - beginning to end

Just a (possibly stupid) question for you IFR gurus here. When instrument landings are off limit, could the IFR equipment itself be relaxed? When looking at the requirements for Norway, the minimum is ADF, VOR and DME in controlled airspace and in G*. Then, above FL95 you also need “Basic RNAV”. In G there are no special requirements apparently. But, for landing on most controlled air field you would also need “Precision RNAV” by the looks of it. Obviously Precision RNAV is not needed for EIR, and staying below FL100, no RNAV at all is required (you can still fly VFR up to FL195 though). Or is anything but Precision RNAV “1960s” technology in any case and nowhere to be found today?

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

Basic RNAV kit should be enough (GNSS, or DME/DME if you so desire). ADF is of no use anymore, and VOR and standalone DME isn’t of much use enroute anymore, as A, B, G, R, H, J, V, W airways are vanishing pretty quickly…

LSZK, Switzerland

PRNAV is (presently) only needed to fly a SID or STAR that requires it. If you don’t have PRNAV, you won’t be assigned such a SID/STAR. (Or if you are, you should refuse and ATC will give you an alternate clearance.) Chances are that in a SEP at a reasonably busy airport, you won’t be assigned a SID or STAR anyway since you will mess up the flow by being too slow.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

If you don’t have PRNAV, you won’t be assigned such a SID/STAR

Do ATC see your flight plan equipment list, or look at it?

I have been to a number of PRNAV-only airports (Zurich and Prague come to mind) and they could not care less. I load the procedure waypoints into the GPS (KLN94 – no RNAV SID/STAR support in the database) manually but they normally vector you anyway.

And in the airport text notes (Jepp charts, anyway) there is normally text saying that you should advise ATC.

I don’t know why these daft procedures are published when practically nobody flies them.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Do ATC see your flight plan equipment list, or look at it?

“see” yes, but look at it very unlikely.

I have been to a number of PRNAV-only airports (Zurich and Prague come to mind) and they could not care less.

Since when is LSZH PRNAV only? It does have a few RNAV1 SIDs, but also lots of RNAV5 and non RNAV procedures.

No wonder they don’t bother, since the RNAV1 procedures are exactly the same as the RNAV5 procedures. If you compare DEGES1D RNAV5 to DEGES1E RNAV1, the only difference is that if you cross ZH504 or ZH525 below 8600ft, you need to check that you’re at KLO R-090/D14.3 and KLO R-093/D19 respectively in the RNAV5 case, but not in the RNAV1 case.

But above 5000ft you’re vectored anyway, and even a 172SP should manage to be above 5000ft at ZH504, so the practical difference is nil.

LSZK, Switzerland

LeSvig

in theory they could be relaxed, at this time however, it has been stated repeatedly that a IFR certified airplane (Switzerland) is required. In those countries, where IFR is not a certification for airplanes, for the moment it is still expected to treat it as a full IFR flight.

Of course, the EIR training also involves emergency procedures involving Instrument Approaches. So of course the airplane has to be equipped to fly these when necessary.

It is questionable generally what equipment is required for IFR flight. There are still a lot of gold plated requirements (such as DME) which might as well be subject to revision. As Tom sais, a good IFR GPS and ILS as well as a transponder should be enough in most cases on the avionic side of things. Whoever has dual IFR GPS (such as dual 430’s) does really not need a DME anymore. Nor do most people need an ADF unless they fly in the east block a lot.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

The only thing you need an ADF for is possibly an initial IR (IRT) test in the UK and maybe some other places.

We had some stuff posted here recently on the latest UK CAA IRT rules and you could avoid an ADF but you had to agree with the examiner beforehand to do the test at an airport which has no NDBs in the approaches (ones that will be in use for the prevailing wind etc). That rules out some GPS approaches which have an NDB in the missed approach. So basically your choice of airports goes down, possibly very substantially. No way to do an NDB-free IRT by popping down from EGHH to LDLO for example

And I can understand this completely. As I keep saying, this is a “classical IFR” test, not a “real world flying” test, and given there are no general GPS substitution rules, they can’t let you pretend an NDB is an RNAV (GPS) waypoint. Yes, it’s crap, and they should be teaching pilots to fly for real, but in the FTO environment it simply isn’t going to happen… their business model is generating max number of big jet RHS occupants who “cannot” screw up no matter how bad they are because they have an experienced LHS who can (providing nothing major packs up) fly the plane all by himself.

A similar comment for a DME, i.e. if the chart says DME Mandatory then you will need it. Practically, I find a DME really handy especially on an ILS where you rarely have a “zero DME” GPS waypoint to use instead. And I fly the ILS a lot – most airports I fly to from the UK that have Customs also have an ILS. Whether I would spend 10k installing a DME from fresh, is a different question I actually probably would.

So much depends on whether you plan to use the plane for IR tests. Most SR22s for example can be used for IR tests with great difficulty only.

Since when is LSZH PRNAV only

Last time I flew there (a few years ago) I did not see any sids/stars other than RNAV ones. But you are right – just looked – there are some.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Urs,

as per the future. European equipment regs, DME is no longer strictly required for IFR.

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

Bosco,

in the future that may be the case, currently it is still very much required to get the entry “IFR CAT I” in the C of A of any Swiss airplane. I hope this will eventually change, yet it is not a problem to me (anymore) thanks to one forum member here I now do have a TSO’d KN62a. I’ll also retain my trusty ADF for now…

I understand further that while EASA may have relaxed the rules regarding requirement of DME or ADF, local CAA’s seem to be more hesitant.

As I can see that e.g. practically no FAA regulated planes still have DME’s, I should think that 2 IFR certified GPS Systems shold be more than capable to replace DME as well as the ADF, even if there are NDB’s or DME’s part of the procedure (e.g. VOR-DME or ILS-DME approaches). Whether there are still areas in which there is no GPS coverage or insufficient coverage, I remember when this was the case, but I think it is not really an issue anymore.

Peter,

over here, it will be difficult to find an actual NDB approach to test. There still is one NDB Approach in Bern, I guess I will find out in due course if it will be used or not for the IR test. I am aware that IFR regs do not require it anymore unless the airport in question demands it, yet I got one so it might as well stay where it is.

The point however may well be that there may well be a lack of IFR suitable or certified (according to local rules) airplanes available for people to rent with brand new IR/EIR ratings. It will take a while until clubs realize that it might well pay off to install the necessary equipment in planes not usually associated with IFR for people to use it when demand picks up. But you are right, it may be a time before clubs and ftos get to the point to reckognize that the IFR suitable planes are no longer something maybe one out of 100 people need.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

there may well be a lack of IFR suitable or certified airplanes available for people to rent

My club (a few miles south of your homebase) now has 4 172SP, all IFR certified

LSZK, Switzerland
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