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CB-IR / CB IR / CBIR (merged)

can anyone make a “best guess” / estimate when the CB IR will be ready? Are we talking months or years?

It has to be at least 12 months I would have thought. That’s just a very uneducated guess. I did speak to one chap who was involved in the authoring of some of the UK CAA PPL books, and was an ATPL trainer, and a few months ago he knew of no preparation planned from a training front. He might just be speaking for himself and only organisations he knows, or maybe he is aware of something and wasn’t in a position to disclose. At the minimum there needs approval, surely rounds of draft materials, UAT of some kind of the material, training programmes and software written and agreed upon Europe-wide, UAT of said training programmes and software, then adoption and pricing by FTO’s. Then there is the question of which FTO’s see this as a commercially viable venture. The same applies for the EIR I guess as I am sure I read here or somewhere else, that it is largely the same theoretical knowledge.

Will all the schools teaching PPL + IMCr, all want to teach PPL + EIR, and of those who will viably want to teach PPL + CBR IR when they aren’t currently offering the traditional route into the IR? It’s not just the hardware they need (IFR reliably equipped planes), it’s finding instructors who will stay around for longer than a year or so to learn and be accredited to teach the additional TK. So that in my mind means only the large established training organisations will have the career instructors and hardware to do it. In the South East UK that means Oxford, Cranfield, Stapleford amongst others. I approached Stapleford to do a part time PPL + IR and they weren’t really interested so will they want to do the CBM IR with a bunch of weekend part-timers – probably not. My mission profile doesn’t lend itself to me committing the time and money to a IR in the current form, but if I had hopes my local PPL flying school, or others local to me are all going to be offering CBM IR courses, and suddenly it really would be an ‘accessible’ IR, I fear my hopes are dashed. Maybe I am just being too pessimistic…..

Piper Archer

I disagree the tin pot rf that I tend to waste most of my spate time at. Out of the 4 part time instructors. 3 of them have taught at CPL level and 3 have taught for the IR and I can’t see this changing to much.

PiperArcher

It may be worth contacting the FTO mentioned in post #3 in this thread. I know Jim Thorpe but don’t know the company.

The other historically significant player in the private IR scene has been PAT (Professional Air Training) at Bournemouth EGHH and my guess would be that they will be looking at something.

For me, EGHH would have been a hotel stay so I did the JAA IR flight training (15hr conversion route) via another nearer FTO but can’t recommend them in any way on the basis of my experience. They were however convenient which is a huge factor for a busy person with a “life”.

And there lies the perpetual problem which has dogged the IR in Europe: for most candidates, the process is full of really crap choices, between one option which is good in one way and crap in another, and vice versa.

And it gets much worse for an aircraft owner who wants to do it in his/her plane. That always severely limited the options. I can’t see that ever changing, because the reason is organisational and financial preference for the FTO, not that putting a plane on their approved list is at all hard (it is about an hour’s work).

I did my 7 JAA IR exams via GTS who are in the same building as PAT but would not recommend them for the exams because of the way they operate the homework assignments etc (explanation in this long report). But GTS may well be ahead of the field in producing a ground school.

Historically the most popular private IR ground school provider has been CATS at Cranfield – largely because their homework material is aligned with their computer question bank so you don’t have to learn two lots of garbage.

The above is for the UK, but I am fairly sure that every FTO in Europe will accept UK exam passes. If anybody hears to the contrary, please post it here. It’s all the other combinations which were varyingly dodgy (and will probably remain dodgy) e.g. flight training in the UK and exams done in Spain.

Last Edited by Peter at 21 Feb 17:33
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I freelance at Stapleford so declare an interest.

I converted a lapsed Canadian IR when still a PPL and they were very helpful – including getting a good credit on hours despite my original IR having been done when there were still LF four range courses in operation.

I was working full time, but they fit me in on early morning slots, or evenings and it was all quite efficient. In addition to LAM VOR on site, actual training sorties are Southend, Manston, Cambridge, occasionally Coventry or Cranfield. Exams are now Stapleford to Stapleford – previously you had to position at Cranfield.

My distance learning CPL course was via a Bournemouth outfit, I think now defunct.

Since then they have invested in better sims, Twinstars, reasonably fresh Arrows and Warriors, and have teamed up with Pro Pilot, Coventry for ATPL ground training on site. The Pro Pilot team is mainly very experienced ex services with iPad material, workbooks, and on line progress tests.

Will check what preparations are in hand and revert, but my working assumption is that they will want to offer this as an option.

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

> It’s all the other combinations which were varyingly dodgy (and will probably remain dodgy) e.g. flight training in the UK and exams done in Spain.

What’s the basis for this statement? Will this not change with EASA, where surely all countries should be testing to the same standards and qualifications should be mutually recognised?

The first step for any new IR candidate will be to pass the theory tests. This will involve around 80 hours distance learning and 8 hours on site classroom. All the tests can be taken in one day. If there is market demand then surely we should see a number of providers emerge across Europe during 2014.

While new TK courses will have to be approved by national CAAs I don’t see why this would take a long time for existing TK providers.

Non-UK pilots who don’t have the option of an IMC/IR(R) may generate more demand, which may benefit us all.

FlyerDavidUK, PPL & IR Instructor
EGBJ, United Kingdom

What’s the basis for this statement?

Long standing practice. I did a lot of research into the various options, in 2010-2012. The link is above.

For example if you did your IR training and test in Greece, your (exactly) only options for the exams were either UK or Greece.

Or perhaps German exams, being as “perfect” as the UK ones, would also be acceptable to the German DFS together with Greek training, but I never came across a German doing flight training in Greece

Will this not change with EASA, where surely all countries should be testing to the same standards and qualifications should be mutually recognised?

It ought to, as you know, but in practice we can expect the national CAAs to fight various rearguard actions, for their own reasons, which range from “standards maintenance” (lots of stories, probably mostly false nowadays, circulating about how certain things are done in southern Europe) to blatent job protection.

It’s also obviously true that " all countries should be testing to the same standards " is not going to happen. Europe doesn’t work like that.

So, if we look at this not from a “Euro legal” academic POV but from the POV of what a prospective candidate can expect in the future, less will change than we might expect.

If there is market demand then surely we should see a number of providers emerge across Europe during 2014.

I agree, but I don’t think the private IFR market is big enough, compared to the ATPL sausage machine for which it is easy to make the numbers add up so long as you can stuff enough meat into the intake pipe. I don’t think it will ever be big enough. The (roughly) 10x to 20x higher private IR penetration in the USA is due to many factors, most of which aren’t going to happen in Europe, mostly due to protectionist measures everywhere you look. When the day comes that you can walk into your local school and do a PPL, then come back to the same local school and do an IR, in your plane or in some syndicated plane perhaps, a lot will change. Until then, it will remain a specialist business.

Last Edited by Peter at 21 Feb 21:13
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I freelance at Stapleford so declare an interest

Robert, I got your private message. Not sure if you got my reply? I haven’t used the PM system before. Stapleford would be a great place for me to do a CBM IR as its a fairly short drive, and I did my NQ there so I know their setup. When I enquired about the PPL/IR, I never got any responses to the 2 emails I sent. I maybe mistakenly got the feeling (fairly understandably) that their focus is on the full time CPL/IR camp, but if you hear of them preparing for the EIR or CBM/IR – that would certainly be interesting.

I have heard good things about Bournemouth, but the cost of a hour flight or a 2 hour drive is a factor.

Piper Archer

I did, but now could not find the e mail. I am at Stapleford today so will check up on this.

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom
What’s the basis for this statement?

Long standing practice. I did a lot of research into the various options, in 2010-2012. The link is above.

For example if you did your IR training and test in Greece, your (exactly) only options for the exams were either UK or Greece.

Or perhaps German exams, being as “perfect” as the UK ones, would also be acceptable to the German DFS together with Greek training, but I never came across a German doing flight training in Greece

I’m not disagreeing that this might be the current situation, but was looking for specific regulatory statements that confirm this. Perhaps we could then look at challenging or changing them.

I did follow the link to your EASA IR (a very comprehensive and helpful article). It has a general link to LASORS which is now broken (including the local copy) and a comment that CAP804 would also have the same restrictions. But I can find nothing in CAP804 that restricts TK and flight training to the same country which issues the licence.

I could see that you would have to stick with one organisation for your TK and one for your practical flight training (some Head of Training will need to sign off course completion). Do you think ATOs would turn away business from potential students who had passed their theory exams in another country?

FlyerDavidUK, PPL & IR Instructor
EGBJ, United Kingdom
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