loco wrote:
Just want to answer my question from 2016. The best simulator I found for aerobatics is AeroFly FS2 + Oculus Rift. I tried X-plane and P3D, but their flight model for aerobatic aircraft is worth nothing. With AeroFly FS2 you can really practice your sequence before doing it in the real world. Here’s a video example:
Looks really useful for sequence training, will give that a go for sure. What kind of stick and pedals do you use?
loco wrote:
but their flight model for aerobatic aircraft is worth nothing
You can make your own aircraft, exactly as you want them in X-plane. I tried that AeroFly FS2. I found it cartoonish/gamish compared with X-plane for instance, and it was not clear to me what I could do with it, except just “flying around” in a tiny tiny portion of the world. I kind of agree with X-plane on a general basis. The emphasis of those creating planes seems to be on 3D visual gimmicks in big jets, while leaving lots to be desired for the flight model.
The most high fidelity flight sim I have tried is DCS (Digital Combat Simulator). Way too complex for my liking. You have to start up a P-51 exactly as it is done in real life, and how on earth do you do that ? 
My son loves it, I guess you have to have a young brain to remember all that stuff. But the flight model feels very good (only tried it a couple of times though)
The sim I keep coming back to is Aces High. It’s an online flight sim, but can also be used for free offline. The flight model is excellent (in the air, and remember to turn off the “easy modes”), it’s “systems” are easy enough for me to remember, and it works perfectly well on my PC (a laptop). Purely “VFR”, but excellent for aerobatics and similar stick and rudder stuff. It’s after all tuned through a couple of decades for fighter pilots to feel at home doing dogfights online with each other, without all the unnecessary “realism” of all the correct knobs, levers and systems.
LeSving wrote:
You can make your own aircraft, exactly as you want them in X-plane.
Last time I tried snap roll in an Extra 300 in X-plane, it would enter a flat spin (?!?). Aerobatic maneuvers were just not coded. One can fly a full unlimited sequence in FS2, which I linked in video above. Try doing that with X-plane or Prepar3D. Maybe post a video?
LeSving wrote:
not clear to me what I could do with it, except just “flying around” in a tiny tiny portion of the world.
Yes, that’s what aerobatics is about. Flying in a 1×1×1 km box.
FS2 is the only sim I found that can be used to fly (complete) aerobatics. And it’s the only purpose I use it for. Load high res textures of the airport I’m at, then fly my sequence 20 times to memorize it before flying in competition the next morning. Basically it’s a replacement of walking around and doing the sequence with my hands.
NorFlyer wrote:
What kind of stick and pedals do you use?
Started with 10+ year old stuff found at home. Logitech Extreme joystick and racing pedals. Lately bought flight sim pedals from CH products, but can’t say I’m happy with them. Not too happy with the joystick either. Could a longer one with less spring.
loco wrote:
Aerobatic maneuvers were just not coded.
I thought the point of X-plane compared to other simulators was that manoeuvres are not “coded”? The simulator works by modeling the actual physics. But of course any model breaks down at some point and snap rolls and spins also involve rotational inertia which they may not have put much effort into modeling.
But of course any model breaks down at some point and snap rolls and spins also involve rotational inertia which they may not have put much effort into modeling.
Everything is modelled in X-plane. It’s just a physics simulator. But, to get things reasonably right, the person modelling each plane has to use suitable polars, the mass and inertia had to be right and so on. The basic physics is 100% correct, but the lift and drag forces maybe only 80-90 altogether when considering all possible states an aircraft can enter into. Snap rolls, spins and so on is no problem though.
The problem with X-plane is the persons modelling the planes are more focused on getting the stitching on the back of the pilot seat correct than getting the plane to fly correct.
X-plane is what it is. You can make the perfect aerobatics plane yourself. It really is no problem if you have an engineering background and a PPL. Those making and selling planes obviously have no such background, they are more into 3-D modelling. But why bother, when this FS2 does the job just fine according to loco. Better to use what works than reinventing the wheel.
You can do exactly the same in Aces High as that video by loco. Only I’m not into it nearly enough that I have any idea of to make movies (it can be done, I have seen some, but not by me )
Is there anyone that knows where to get a Garmin G3000 simulator for on Mac or PC?
loco wrote:
Aerobatic maneuvers were just not coded.
They are not coded. X-Plane doesn’t work like FS or P3D, which have code tables. If a plane does not do what it is supposed to in Xplane, then the aerodynamic model needs updating.
Having said that, that is a quite difficult thing to do. But I have seen results which are stunning, best of all the Caravelle Simulator at Ismaring (Germany) which runs Xplane. But as everywhere, garbage in, garbage out. So a lot of xplane models are just no good or they are ok for normal ops but not for aerobatics. You can try to learn about it, but it is, in the true sense of the word, aerodynamic science. Alone talking about these things to Austin Meyers gave me a headache after a short while the only time I tried. But there is a big scene around to help.
AeroPlus wrote:
Is there anyone that knows where to get a Garmin G3000 simulator for on Mac or PC?
I got a G3000 trainer from Socata as part of class rating. Don’t know where else one can get it.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
But as everywhere, garbage in, garbage out
IMO X-Plane must be the quintessential example of this. Some time back (15 years maybe) I made lots of stuff for X-Plane. An automatic METAR downloader, an airfoil-tool converting airfoil polars to X-Plane format from common foil software such as Xfoil and MH-tools (can still be downloaded in fact). I even made a terrain following forward looking autopilot, cruiser missile style, that could be hooked up to any aircraft (easier than it sounds, using published block diagrams I found in a text book). At the same time I started flying (again) and building, and sort of lost interest in that virtual side of things. I actually used X-Plane lately to figure out approximately how large the errors in wing twist and wing mounting had to be before I would notice it in my Onex. Nothing to worry about with kits with pre-punched holes as in the Onex kit I concluded.
Anyway, garbage in – garbage out, that is X-plane in a nut shell, for better and for worse. There’s a lot of nice looking garbage entering X-Plane, but that doesn’t mean there also are lots of good stuff. The new models usually have their visual 3D model separated from the physics model. That wasn’t the case in the beginning when the physics model also was the 3D model. This means the 3D model may look just marvelous, but the physics modes may simply be taken from another plane (at best) or just garbage. The nice thing is that you can take any nice looking plane (3D “skin”) and make your own physics model exactly as you want it.
