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Is IR rating worth if you only fly in the UK?

That was what I was more or less getting at too

Also, back in my VFR days, I have been able to fly across Belgium and Netherlands at say FL085, VFR, above the clouds. The key to this was to turn up at KONAN at some level like that; it’s called a “fait accompli”

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

@Joe-fbs I would absolutely upgrade to a full IR. Firstly it is a good idea anyway. Secondly it will make that trip far more reliable.

EGTK Oxford

…if reliability is what you need, then that is very good advice.

If it’s more a “oh this weekend looks nice, let’s go and visit Joe junior” then not so much.

Do you want to visit him when the weather is miserable? If so, definitely go for an IR.

To take Jason’s other point, I completely agree that everyone would be improved by an IR, and there are many reasons for doing one, I am just not sure that this particular reason is the right one. Had he gone to uni practically anywhere else in Europe, then yes. But you can get out of the FIR in IMC, descend to 1000’ over the sea and fly all the way to destination at 1000’.

EGKB Biggin Hill

Non-oxygen means FL100 or below. As per my past above I would like to see someone post developed routings which would work usefully.

I suspect the only “real IFR” way will be from EGBT, to the south, initially at 2300ft and then climbing up to 5400ft upon reaching the south coast, around GWC, then the usual DCT SFD and then around SFD you can get a climb FL100 on a heading of about 100, and once past SFD they let you go to KONAN and from there is works OK to Netherlands. I have done that countless times. But that’s a much longer route.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

I suspect the only “real IFR” way will be from EGBT, to the south, initially at 2300ft and then climbing up to 5400ft upon reaching the south coast, around GWC, then the usual DCT SFD and then around SFD you can get a climb FL100 on a heading of about 100, and once past SFD they let you go to KONAN and from there is works OK to Netherlands. I have done that countless times. But that’s a much longer route.

To Holland you would never go around the south coast from Turweston.

From Turweston I would fly M189 DTY to ADMIS then M183 to REDFA. That gets you in the Dutch airways.

And Autorouter gives EGBT N0138F090 POTON M189 CLN L620 BASNO VFR EHLE

Last Edited by JasonC at 13 Jan 21:24
EGTK Oxford

At what level would you expect to fly DTY ADMIS, Jason? In say a PA28.

M183 to REDFA takes you across the N Sea

Joe needs to say whether he is willing to do that.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

At what level would you expect to fly DTY ADMIS, Jason? In say a PA28.

M183 to REDFA takes you across the N Sea

Well MEA on M189 is a bit high I agree. On the Autorouter route of L620 across the MEA is FL90 coming down to FL60 on the Dutch side.

Last Edited by JasonC at 13 Jan 21:55
EGTK Oxford

I think it comes down to a combination of:

  • Actual risk
  • Perception of risk (that you might call discomfort)
  • Despatch/Arrival reliability

There is an actual risk of crossing the North Sea in a single. That risk is somewhat mitigated by going high, because you are in gliding range of the coast a little longer, have more time to announce your distress and position and more chance of seeing a smallish boat to ditch in front of. But obviously the risk of crossing Dover to Calais at 5000’ is much less.

There is the actual risk of scud running across The Netherlands at 1000’. As it’s the Netherlands and Joe will, by then, be very familiar with the route and TV masts, that risk is rather low. If the cloudbase descends, he has an IR(R) and simply climb, talk to Dutch Mil, land at Antwerp and deal with the paperwork afterwards.

For me, the perceived risk of crossing the North Sea would be so high as to make me uncomfortable and not want to be there. Joe’s results may vary. This has little to do with the actual likelihood of the engine stopping, just the perception that it could.

The perceived risk of scud running across The Netherlands might also be high, but that, too, would be somewhat assuaged by familiarity with the route.

Then there is the question of how many days in the year that a non-deiced SEP could safely despatch at FL60-100, compared to how many in IMC to the FIR boundary then VMC at 1000’.

I think that only Joe can answer these questions.

EGKB Biggin Hill

I would not do that sea crossing voluntarily nowadays, especially not on a regular basis. I would route down to around DVR and then head across to (sort of) EBOS etc. Maybe a 20% overhead but almost always in glide range of land. You may have to go VFR though.

If someone has experience of getting a climb to say FL100 east of DTY (not in a jet, I mean) that would be interesting. But that just takes you straight over the N Sea. And you definitely cannot go a bit east and then head to say DVR (for the shorter water crossing) because of conflict with LGW/LHR etc traffic around FL100.

I have done long flights, west of the Italian coast, where they kept you down to ~1000ft by their Class A.

Today, with an IR, I don’t have to do that. Or maybe I am just getting old. Along with not flying much at night, I call it “risk management”

FL100 puts you into icing conditions most of the year, even in the summer. I recall collecting plenty of ice at FL070 one September, around mid-Channel, going to Poitiers. But that’s another debate… it leads to how useful the IR is without oxygen, or in a plane which cannot do much more than FL100. I don’t think it is very useful; I know this because on a nice day I always ask to cruise at FL100 and very often I have to climb after that to stay out of icing. Anyone reading my trip writeups, or watching the videos (in my more recent writeups) will see how often this happens. In such a situation one is better flying VFR below, and this works anytime except in the “proper winter” when you have icing all the way down.

But Joe’s profile is almost empty; he might have a TB20

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Joe, my point of view isn’t going to be popular with the “step into life raft without getting feet wet” school, but I’ve worked in the North Sea and I think that flying SEP direct on a regular basis is stark raving bonkers.

At 110 knots, going via the Strait of Dover will add just 25 minutes to your journey and as Timothy says, after a couple of VFR trips you’ll know the waypoints, squawks and frequencies by heart. By the end of the year, you’ll probably be on first name terms with the ATCOs and FISOs.

Flying direct, you will be over water for about an hour. If the MTBF of your airframe and powerplant is, say, fifty thousand hours, those are pretty decent odds. But if you visit once a month, your odds drop to one in two thousand. Call me a coward, but that doesn’t seem such a good gamble to me.

Even from Scotland to EHHO, which is a bit further, my Maule likes to go via LFAC. No need to stop there, except perhaps to be Schengenised and pay 10 Euros to the nice lady in the office for your landing fee and a colourful Cap-Calaisis ball pen.

Glenswinton, SW Scotland, United Kingdom
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