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Stuttgart to Sitia LGST, Crete

However, the size and scope of American bureaucracy is a fraction of the deep involvement of German bureaucracy in daily life. As a result, bureaucracy in the US is easier to avoid

I wonder why I am forced by IRS to fill out their tax forms even though I have nothing really to do with them other than a few customers in the US. I also wonder why US laws are used against Swiss bankers that supposedly did something wrong in Switzerland. US bureaucracy not only strangles Americans, it is a nasty imperialistic threat to the whole world. Ask US citizens that live in the US how German bureaucracy affects them...

Thinking of cash vs receipt situations in Greece, I did get receipts for pretty much everything. The taxi ride was the only exception and normally I insist on a receipt but this time I forgot. All restaurants, hotels, cafes, etc. gave me receipts without asking. Your attitude of supporting the black money business is a really bad one because it gives great advantages to those people that actually can make black money like taxi drivers but it leaves all the rest behind that have no access to such revenue (like teachers). In the end you run into problems like you see in Italy where a huge gray sector exists and a strangled middle class.

If a hotel wanted cash from me, my answer would be credit card + invoice or no payment at all. I pay my taxes and am generally OK with the amount of taxes but this only works on a level playing field with everybody onboard. Therefore I am absolutely allergic to others evading taxes and will never facilitate it. I think that the value I get for my taxes is rather good.

Your story about the German hotel wanting cash is hard to believe. I'm not 54 years old but I have stayed in hundreds of hotels in Germany and what you describe can't be right. Especially since nowadays 90% of hotel bookings go via internet. The German tax office does not rely on restaurant owners printing receipts, they use data mining and covert purchases to estimate the purchases. If you buy meat for x Euros, they know in which range your revenue has to be. There was once a funny court case where a restaurant served extraordinarily large schnitzels at a low price and the tax office didn't accept their declared revenue because it was not enough in relation to the meat they purchase. Their computer has a definition of a "standard schnitzel". The answer is always more bureaucracy but unfortunately it is often needed...

While we are fixing all the world's problems...

Also my sympathy only goes so far. When I see the german chancellor portrayed as a Nazi on Greek newspapers or when I constantly have to fight against corruption, well that's no fun.

The problem is - what can the EU do about this?

The fundamental decision is whether Greece stays or leaves the Eurozone.

Germany cannot have it both ways. They cannot have Greece staying and hope to fix their way of life. It's like half of the old joke: the woman hopes the man will change but he doesn't, and the man hopes the woman won't change but she does...

But Germany does not want Greece to leave, because if Greece left, and reverted to the Drachma, it might be able to stage an export-led recovery. (Tourism is just one of many exports - albeit the principal one on the islands - but many are going to Turkey which is half the price or less, just like Croatia was before it realised they could emulate the Eurozone, raise prices in tourist areas, and make a bit of extra money before they join). That would be very bad news for the Eurozone, if Spain got the same idea....... so a Greek exit cannot be risked, at any cost.

The EU (Germany and France) should have thought of this some years ago. They knew the numbers could not add up. Everybody lending money to Greece knew Greece could not repay it, but they lent it because they earned nice commissions and they banked on Germany picking up the bill.

Now it's too late. With France not having a load of spare cash, I think Germany is going to be stuck with this black hole for a while. They put a trillion or so into East Germany and now they will have to stick a bit into southern Europe.

It's a really bad failed experiment.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Alexisvc, I wrote it that way intentionally - because I'm not interested in getting into a debate here on how often the government inspects your houses heating system, mandatory aircraft insurance, EASA aircraft maintenance (well, maybe later ;-), national ID cards, mandatory government supplied heath insurance, periodic TUV vehicle inspections, mandatory marriage ceremonies at city hall and the like :-) OK?

Re the tax stuff, trust me on this - most of the people I personally know in Germany do not pay much tax, as a result of doing cash business, business with friends or both combined. Some of them might just work in the hotel business, or even own a hotel. Others might have large cash businesses, but I couldn't say for sure.

Peter - it wont be a failed experiment for the Germans when they end up holding title to southern Europe. More of a considered investment.

Peter, yes of course you are right. But let's leave that topic to other forums ... I was more speakig emotionally but i also completely agree with ACHIMA, completely and in all details.

I do not want to be part of the hotel owners black money business. By the way: These guys have the biggest pickup trucks, wear lots of gold around their necks and while they pay no tax at the same time they let Albanians and Romanians clean their hotels and work as their waiters. Of course without ANY contract. 15 to 20 Euros per day is a typical rate they pay an Albanian woman.

Now ask the young Romanian guy who worked there for the past 5 years about the "Mediterranean Lifestyle". (I did ...)

I could go into more detail, but let's stop it here. We're pretty far from Flying here :-)

I bet if I accidentally trespass on Silvaire's property I would get shot

Northern European and (Republican) Americans' idea of what government and society is for, what rights and duties it should have and what the government's relationship with the people should be are vastly different. This is fine, it's just a proof that there is not just only one way to organize a society.

This whole Germany vs. Southern Europeans thing is really sad. Germany finds itself in a position it never wanted -- to lead the EU. The whole society, the political system (with a chancellor that has very little power) are not designed and do not want to lead. While I am not a fan of Merkel, I do think she reacts to all these nasty associations and allegations in a very good way -- just ignore them and try to move forward.

I do not share Peter's fatalism about the EU or the Eurozone being a failed experiment -- to the contrary. Good things are happening. I believe most Greeks actually like the idea of no longer having dentists with Bentleys and villas with pools that declare an income of 10 000 € a year and having a working land registry. And if that means Germany and other EU members have to pay billions to help some of its neighbors that are currently in trouble, yes, then I support that with my tax money just as I have contributed financially to developing the GDR into a really nice part of Europe. What I don't like is when one EU countries lectures another and I hate to see when that happens, especially by a German politician. And don't assume that things will always be like they are now. A crisis comes, a crisis goes. The hero of today is the loser of tomorrow. Spain was Europe's powerhouse for many years and Germany was the sick man. Soon it can turn around again. Don't forget that the reforms that made Germany strong were all done by the previous socialist government and that government lost the election because of those reforms. Life is unjust...

Silvaire, sorry but that's really a lot of strange stuff your are telling here. Just LOOK at the german tax numbers and you will know it all.

  • I personally have a friend who owns a big hotel, he is my BEST and oldest friend. Whenever I wanted to stay at his hotel I got a discount of 20 %, never without an invoice. It is simply not possible.
  • Another friend of mine has a big painting business. Although he flies my old airplane for FREE (he pays for the maintenance and insurance) he will not paint ONE DOOR or room in my house without a proper invoice. I would not even DARE to ask him. I do get a discount, sure, bath that's it.

That's two examples, but actually I do not remember that I ever had any "cash business" with a friend. It is is just not common. And I bet that all other germans here will support this.

I do not remember that I ever had any "cash business" with a friend. It is is just not common. And I bet that all other germans here will support this.

Aehm, no. There is a lot of black money in home improvement. Smaller firms and individuals do totally black jobs and bigger firms offer extra work for cash. That is hard to fix. There are legal variants of it, called "neighbor assistance". I have a friend who is a car mechanic. He changes and stores my car tyres for free (because for him it's a 15 min job while for me it takes 90 min) and I help him with computer stuff.

Businesses like hotels wouldn't run such schemes because it is so easy to get caught and the consequences in Germany are draconic. Rape a kid, go to jail for 2 years, evade taxes and serve 5 (that is exaggerated but it's true that the penal code has little tolerance for evading taxes). Hotels also have a duty to report personal data of its occupants and that is yet another severe criminal offense if you don't do it. There are a lot of data points where they can get you, there are disgruntled employees, competitors, etc. You wouldn't do it.

I am involved in two companies in Egypt. For the tax return, it is typical to declare all kinds of phantasy expenses, there are companies that mass produce fake invoices by inexistent suppliers, etc. all to get your profit down. The tax office has the right to refuse certain expenses but there aren't any consequences. Of course everybody cheats and the government has practically no tax income and has to run from oil, Suez channel and the military is funded by having a monopoly on certain industries. This really convinced me of the merits of having a strong bureaucracy and severe punishment for tax evasion.

Switzerland is generally very similar to Germany but it works better than Germany. It needs less bureaucracy, less punishment, less restrictions to function and for people to pay taxes. Why it is like that, I don't know. I am also very impressed by Estonia and its neighbors Lavtia and Lithuania.

Achema, yes, you are right. The "home imporovement" sector is a problem. I probably forgot because I don't have any connections like that :-)

"Achimha" of course !..... sorry!

Now the truth starts to come out :-)

Been there, done that and its how EVERYTHING gets done in a village... at least the one I know. Not a lot of 19% cuts being taken by the bureaucrats (to send to Prussia, or so I'm told :-) Healthy entrepreneurship regardless.

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