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TB20 / Twin Commanche / Sportcruiser ?

From experience – watch out when you buy used STC equipment. Especially if it’s S-Tec.

In order to install used STC’d equipment, you need a Letter of Authorization from the STC holder per FAR 21.120. You’re not legal to install the item without it (this is fairly new regulation and one of the most ignored/misunderstood). Most STC holders will grant you a LoA for a fee, normally around 10% of the cost of the what a new item would be. Some will demand that you send the item to them for overhaul or inspection before they issue LoA. If they reject it, there is no way for you to put the item on legally. You’ll have to sell it and hope someone is dim enough to buy an unusable part. Some will never issue a LoA no matter what (as they’re now out of a sale, in their short term minds). S-Tec is one of those companies: they refuse to issue LoA. So if by any chance you want to install a used one – forget it. Can’t be done legally. Or if you have one and want to get rid of it, the market is very slim (only one who can buy it is someone who’s already got one, basically).

Thread lightly and do your research and contact STC holder before you buy any used STC’d part.

Doesn’t this depend on whether the STC says it is applicable only to new parts?

One does need the STC holder permission in all cases where an STC is used to directly support a 337 (Major Mod with an STC). You don’t need an STC holder’s permission where the content of an STC is used to support a 337 (Major Mod with a Field Approval – this route not available for autopilots AFAIK). With some products the permission is stated in the STC. With others it is granted free of charge – for example I got this from Shadin for their fuel totaliser installation (I had to relocate the transducer from the original Socata non-functioning location). Others will try to bend you over a barrel for some money. But the money may be reasonable if they also overhaul it… would you buy a used autopilot anyway and just install it?

What I found that was new when doing my Sandel install was that the FAA claimed they check the STC holder’s permission. Allegedly, they didn’t used to check it. Whether this is true I have no idea; rumour suggests they have nobody checking these days.

I thought the biggest issue with used stuff is that you don’t get any documents – unless miraculously the previous owner managed to somehow retrieve the original 8130-3 etc from the factory or the installer or previous owner. And in most cases of more complex products, only the manufacturer can generate these. You can’t just go to some avionics shop with 145 approval and get an 8130-3 issued. Sandel charge about $500 for generating a new one, but they also overhaul the unit for that and put in latest firmware etc.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

If your plane is on the N register why do you need an 8130-3 anyway. WhTvyou do need is a Certificate of Conformance or some other traceability documentation to assist the IA in signing it off as airworthy by connecting the physical part to the approved data (STC, PMA etc)

An 8130-3 does this as a by-product, but the original purpose of the form was for exporting parts from the U.S. to foreign states (if the foreign state required it) for incorporation into foreign registered aircraft

Last Edited by AnthonyQ at 29 Sep 13:38
YPJT, United Arab Emirates

I agree, but you aren’t likely to get any of that with a used autopilot.

Also, due to FUD, most installers here in Europe will demand an 8130-3 or an EASA-1 – regardless of the legal need.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

The FARs actually don’t specify any particular traceability documentation….BUT it is up to the IA to be assured that the part is genuine….

YPJT, United Arab Emirates

You can’t install an STC without the STC holder’s permission. However, if an appliance is airworthy and installed using other than the STC for installation approval (for example a field approval), then you are not violating the STC rights of the STC holder. In the case of an autopilot, an STC is required and field approvals are not permitted, so you need the STC holders approval. In the long past,

I just called and verified that Stec will sell the STC kit for a reasonable amount for the specific make and model. It includes the installation documentation, permission to use, and a new set of brackets etc. They only sell to dealers. The dealer must verify that all the correct part numbers for the components match the STC install documentation. Some components can’t be modified such as the Stec 50 programmer if one wants to change from a 14 volt to a 28 volt version or visa versa. If the component uses a dash number, it may be modified by returning it to the factory. The factory can also test, repair as necessary, and issue Yellow tags to indicate the component is serviceable. A very few dealers have the ability and equipment to issue the yellow tags, but for the most part the factory is the only option. Bottom line, in many cases, installing a used Stec system is not an economical option compared to new from the factory with a warranty. Stec does not prohibit the installation of a used autopilot, but one should be very careful in buying a used system as it could prove to be uneconomical.

KUZA, United States

A poor year of flying for me…. just short of 15 hours. A combination of being bored flying the PA28 ; aircraft away for c. 3 months for debacle of avionics fit ; and lack of availability to get into something better / more capable (see previous thread re change to either Twin Commanche which is a definite possibility – or going the other way to a Sportcruiser / rag n’ tube thing). Have considered aeros course, but wouldn’t use it very often as nearest place is about an hours flight away etc. etc.

Any suggestions / offers gratefully received !!

Since this thread hasn’t brought any enlightenment so far and you clearly have to get into the air much more, let’s reactivate the discussion. 15 hours is no way to enjoy flying.

I think what to do depends largely on the surrounding infrastructure and the aims. If you have the possibility to charter a decent IFR tourer, just buy a cheap aircraft and do the rest of your flying with it. Some PA28-140 or the O-300 powered C172 comes to mind. Especially if you want to get into owner maintenance, these old birds are cheap to operate. In contrast to any new LSA, you will just need liability insurance (no hull insurance necessary – it’s expensive for a low value hull and you won’t damage everything at once anyway), have the engine run on condition, minimise avionics (XPDR, COM and an iPAD / Tablet is really enough these days) and invest the rest in fuel and trips and the occasional IFR charter. And you really can go travelling with those planes, it just needs a bit more time and flexibility. Yes I know, for some people here touring by plane starts with a 210 (or at least an IFR 182), but that is essentially not true, as I have demonstrated multiple times in the past. Just throw a tent and some sleeping bags into the plane, fuel it up and be gone for 14 days, where the weather (and your tablet software subscription) leads you. We operate out 172b for €130/hr including fuel, insurance (for flight training), maintenance and savings (for new engine/prop). (We just calculate it for this plane for renting it out. Otherwise I don’t see any advantage in allocating fixed cost on the flight hour for personal use of the aircraft.)

It might, if you are fine with two persons, be feasible to have a look at the Bölkow Juniors. Cheap to operate, nice flying, fast (easy 110 kts), carries as much as the next LSA (or more), can be flown on auto fuel and do basic aerobatics for less than a fifth of a new LSA.

That is, however, what I’d do and what I recommend to many of my students (despite the fact, that I instruct in an aero clubs flight school – we do live from active pilots and not renting out our flight training aircraft.) Get into flying and buy an aircraft. The bottom end of the used market is full of nice planes waiting to be flown and in astonishing good condition for the money, if you are willing to maintain them yourself. Of course, if you just put the aircraft in a maintenance shop, it will get expensive. But you have to have something for the rainy days.

Cheers to a better 2015 with more hours in your logbook.

mh
Aufwind GmbH
EKPB, Germany

mh, thanks for your suggestions. To be clear, I have a share in a PA28, so access isn’t an issue. The group (as I’ve posted previously) prefer to have everything done to the aircraft when it needs doing and in some cases, overspend imo. Notwithstanding that, the issue with the avionics this year was due to an issue with the compatibility of the com panel with the radio so the aircraft was away for around 3 months to and fro getting it sorted.

I’ve done a reasonable amount of touring in it already, having been in the group for around 5 years. I “used” to use the aircraft to go flying, just for the sake of it when it was still relatively novel. However, as time has passed, I’m bored of burger runs, lunch in a different place and back etc, so I’ve tended to use it for trips with a purpose. So, this year, I went to the Isle of Man TT, the Goodwood Festival of Speed, over to Islay for a tour of the distilleries, etc. However, it only has a heading hold, so its almost constant hand-flying, which is wearing after time, especially if in IMC. Our hourly rate is £105/hr wet but its likely to go down this year with fuel prices plummeting all over the place. Cruise is around 105 knots. However, if you have a headwind, it obviously takes hours and hours to get anywhere, so combine this with handflying, it almost gets to the point that driving would be quicker.

The group are dead against an upgrade of the aircraft – there are 11 of us and there is politics in the group, I think thats the polite way of saying it(!). I personally think upgrading to something like a TB20 would be a great move for us all – there are those in the group who want to “go places” ; those who still do multiple burger runs and those who barely use it at all. Yes, i know, its a large group and these are the problems of a large group but the alternatives are limited to say the least. There are no other groups around for miles.

The twin Com I mentioned has been fully overhauled, zero timed engines and props etc, interior will be upgraded / replaced, has a basic AP but again, that will be upgraded (no idea to what). I need to be careful what I say here as I don’t know who reads this but the guy who owns it is a little vague on the hourly rate – originally mentioned 180 knots and £140/hr but now I know more about them, there is just no way that a twin Com will do 180 knots (unless pointed down obviously) and even £140 / hr sounds very optimistic but based on £120/hr in fuel and £10 / hr each engine. Obviously, this means there is (a) no reserve fund for unexpected costs (b) prop fund (c) 50 hr / annuals will either be allocated by splitting the cost equally between members, or there is another plan for those costs(!). He has a maintenance facility so the aircraft won’t spend hours being ferried all over the place for maintenance, which is an advantage certainly and he will also have a share. Having said all that, he’s very vague about what he wants to do with it – whether selling 5 shares and retaining one for himself or renting it out at say, £270 / hr. I’m still waiting for confirmation of his intentions.

The other option is going the other way and joining a LSA group – there’s a small field about another 20 minutes drive North from the airport where our PA28 is and there are multiple options of these types. I’m going to show my ignorance now and say i don’t know the names of any of them but sufficed to say, I believe there is a group which I could join which would give me access to 3 LSA types which are around £40 / hr (I think). it is cheap, bimble around flying imo, which has its attractions certainly but its not really what I’m after.

Thanks for your suggestions though mh, as it happens, I’m planning a Scotland tour in the next month or two, so at least will get some more hours in. Will update of what comes of the twin Com !

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