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The EIR - beginning to end (merged)

Not always possible, but to call IFR ‘simple’ only says that there is no simple option. I see that as a problem, not a solution.

Exactly. Sweden and Norway, you can fly IFR and VFR wherever and whenever you want. The reason for this; the airspace’es are designed that way. There is no other reason to fly IFR here except weather. If you fly below 20k, as you have to with most GA aircraft, the only difference is that flying VFR you can make diversions on the fly. This is more troublesome IFR I understand.

The traffic saturation down on the continent is slightly higher, but this is only a reason to clean up the airspaces, not complicate them even more.

ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

This is more troublesome IFR I understand.

Hmmm… I don’t think so…

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Having flown VFR all over Norway I would have to agree with LeSving…..wonderful freedom and very helpful ATC….and of course spectacularly beautiful!

EGPD / OMDW / YPJT, United Kingdom

the only difference is that flying VFR you can make diversions on the fly. This is more troublesome IFR I understand.

That is not correct; An IFR diversion is easy: Just tell ATC that you would like divert to airport X and they will come up with a new clearance.
It doesn’t necessarily have to be the filed alternate.

Flying IFR you have less freedom in that you’re expected to fly the cleared route. You can’t just do some 360’s to make some nice pictures, for example :-)
But if you ask it, it’s almost never a problem > PH-PCA request some airwork at FLxxx. > That’s what I usually do to make some pictures :-)

Last Edited by lenthamen at 30 Sep 19:43

I know you guys are quick to emphasize the utility and simplicity of IFR…..however LeSving is technically correct! as simple as IFR may be, VFR is even simpler in terms of diverting…..jeez

EGPD / OMDW / YPJT, United Kingdom

VFR is even simpler in terms of diverting…..jeez

Well, yes, in Class G there is no such thing as a diversion You just fly where you like…

But if you are VFR then on any given “mission” you are about 10x more likely to need to divert – unless you chose CAVOK conditions.

The two are different tools for different jobs… but the preflight complexity of IFR is far less than VFR and has been thus since about 2008 when the first autorouting tools came out and broke open the restrictive practices which Eurocontrol used to support. I think the worst time for IFR in Europe was between when Eurocontrol first got going (1995? – before my time) and 2008. Even today, many IFR pilots I bump into don’t know about autorouting and are struggling with the Eurocontrol-imposed mess.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Well, yes, in Class G there is no such thing as a diversion. You just fly where you like…

Or in US Class E… I don’t always know precisely where I’ll be landing when I take off – I go in a certain direction with multiple possibilities in mind, some notes, and Foreflight running on a couple of devices. The first to know is the controller at the final selection’s tower, five minutes before touchdown. Or nobody except me if its an uncontrolled field, either before or after I’ve been there.

Its surely a good thing that IFR is becoming a little more user friendly in the EU. I think the next and more fundamental challenge in terms of utility and freedom should be to achieve the same with VFR across national borders, making it no different than driving a car between the same places. That will be progress.

Last Edited by Silvaire at 30 Sep 21:24

I think the next and more fundamental challenge in terms of utility and freedom should be to achieve the same with VFR across national borders, making it no different than driving a car between the same places. That will be progress.

I best keep that instrument rating current then. Sadly Europe will never become like that. The battle is already lost. Flying around the US last month you realise that VFR in the US can be as good as IFR here. Radar service, help on radio, free routings or of course nothing but take off, fly, land.

VFR in Europe is not an EASA priority. So I never see the cross border stuff being resolved.

EGTK Oxford

As I’ve thought and doubtless said occasionally, “never” is a long time… Ten years from now would be good for me, but I’d agree that’s unlikely to happen. That said, I can’t see the current somewhat ludicrous straightjacket approach to intra-EU VFR lasting forever, particularly given the short distances involved to fly to multiple nations in a day, and the obviously wonderful benefits in terms of what you can experience within the range of one tank of fuel.

Last Edited by Silvaire at 30 Sep 23:11
VFR in Europe is not an EASA priority. So I never see the cross border stuff being resolved.

The “cross-border” stuff is not an EASA question – it’s question of the ideas every individual country has about national security. The reason it is simpler for IFR is that every IFR flight is on a flight plan anyway.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden
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