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The poor practical standard of freshly minted EASA CPL holders

Off_Field wrote:

Cleaning up isn’t really related to flying though, all of the original points wer

Is refueling and topping up the oil then? (Or flying to unattended airfields in a part of the world where none exist)

Last Edited by what_next at 17 Mar 18:12
EDDS - Stuttgart

Most aircraft operations numerically are at unattended airports, so I think being a pilot without having training on operations at unattended airports would be a very limiting choice, regardless of the local practice. And if you’re at an unattended airport it’s often useful to know how to check the oil… e.g.every time before you restart the engine for departure.

You did bring oil with you, right?

Last Edited by Silvaire at 17 Mar 20:08

… so I think being a pilot without having training on operations at unattended airports would be a very limiting choice,…

So far I have not felt that I am limited in any way. And should I ever have to fly to an unattended field then the required skills will not take more than ten minutes to be acquired.

EDDS - Stuttgart
Just like learning ag operations is not a 30 minute task, neither is conducting unattended operations a subset of more restrictive flying.

Sometimes I am really puzzled: There are so many people who know everything about anything. Why do they not teach new pilots all those things? Instead they leave the instructing to people like myself who know absolutely nothing about flying. No wonder the freshly minted pilots have no idea!

EDDS - Stuttgart

I don’t see the need to criticise other pilots because their experience or interests are different.

Apart from the IMC stuff, I’d not fall into any of the “failings” listed in the original post. But I’m other could equally level many criticisms at me:

1. Never flown any aerobatics, not even as a passenger.
2. Never flown in a tail wheel aircraft.
3. Never flown IFR, apart from as a passenger.
4. Don’t hold a CPL
5. Never flown a microlight
6. Never flown a glider (though I was a passenger once)
7. Never flown a float plane.
8. Never flown higher than 10500ft (except as a passenger)
9. Never done any engineering maintenance on an aircraft.
10. Only once ever flown a helicopter.

I’m sure many would criticise these failings, but do they make me a bad or boring pilot? They aren’t what I’m interested in (though I’d love to try a flexwing sometime!), or beyond my budget. So I choose to learn and practice what I enjoy and what’s within my budget. I’m sure the pilots in the original post are also choosing to learn what they enjoy and what’s within their budget. The career path that they are aiming for, will not involve most of the things listed there, so they have little reason to spend time learning them.

Before you criticise others for what they don’t know, consider what you don’t know yourself.

Live and let live.

EIWT Weston, Ireland

dublinpilot wrote:

I don’t see the need to criticise other pilots because their experience or interests are different.

Exactly. I’m very interested in learning anything that might be beneficial to me later on. But I’m not interested in everything – I know zero about IFR for instance, I have no personal interest in it and when I’ve flown IFR with others its looked boring to me. That doesn’t mean I want my airliner to fly VFR. I think the issue is when people see their relatively small part of the world as determining the limits of what is really necessary or important. That is a short sighted point of view, or perhaps even arrogant.

Last Edited by Silvaire at 17 Mar 20:55

I think the issue is that here in the UK (where Bathman is) almost nobody is doing the JAA or now EASA CPL unless they want to do the CPL/IR and head for an airline job.

A few used to do a CPL/IR to instruct (but mostly looking at airline jobs in the meantime) but nowadays you don’t need a CPL to do paid instruction – that was mainly a JAA thing.

A very few did the CPL/IR as a personal challenge and to instruct (I think I know just one, and he’s on here).

I know one guy who did the JAA CPL but has no IR. This is really rare. I think he did it so he could instruct (he is also a CRI ) and get paid. Today, you need just the CPL exam passes to do that, although you still need the full FI to ab initio instruct, etc, etc.

And the training is very narrow, like the IR, banging standard routes and doing the same 5 things. You aren’t taught to fly from A to B using GA. Not in the PPL and not in the CPL.

In contrast, on the FAA scene many do the CPL because it is a natural progression from the PPL. That’s what I did, although nowadays it is not something one would do for fun because of the checkride difficulties. And for various reasons (airspace and cultural uniformity, etc) both the PPL and the CPL are usable out of the box, in the USA.

I don’t read Bathman’s post as a personal criticism. He is describing a situation which I have seen loads of. The ATPL training scene is a very isolated environment. Book yourself into some cheap and dirty hotel in say Bournemouth, popular with FTO students, and you will see how this business works in about 5 minutes. They mostly haven’t got a clue about flying from A to B. And probably won’t have until well into their multi pilot RHS time, and even then there is no need to know because the ops department does it for you. The really smart ones (and there are a few of them) often end up in bizjets where they do have to do it all…

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

what_next wrote:

And I will always refuse [to fly IFR outside controlled airspace] and I will never teach anyone to do that.

You’ve better not fly (as pax) with a regional airline in Scandinavia, then.

But seriously, you mean you wont fly an instrument approach or departure into/from an airport such as EDQD (Bayreuth)?

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Silvaire wrote:

Just like learning ag operations is not a 30 minute task,

I did all my IFR training at Hayward, Stockton, Concord and Livermore. All are towered airports. Does that disqualify me from performing IAP at unmanned airports? I subsequently flew to Sonoma county airport, Clear Lake, Arcata, Provo, Furnace Creek, Shoshone, Harris Ranch and other unmanned airports both IFR and VFR.
. Never had an issue.

Let’s not go overboard one way or the other. We do not like to go outside our comfort zone which is different from one individual to the next based on individual experience or lack thereof in a particular field. Some swear that they won’t fly anything else than IFR. Others that they will never set foot in a single-engine piston. To yet others night flying in SEP is a no-no. Others again feel that warm and fuzzy feeling when they have someone to talk to when landing. That’s the way it is.

LFPT, LFPN
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