greg_mp, thanks for the tips. Flying single pilot, I was a little reluctant to dive into the web of 35 VRPs from 7 different airports at the bouche du rhone … but it’s a good plan for a step up the next time. What are these VFR-Routes called among French ATC and french pilots? “la route VFR par la cote allant de xyz à abc”/“the coastal route via …”?.
For the routing depicted below you just call them at AM-LFMT and ask for SA-LFMT, ES-LFMT, SW-LFMT for LFMU? What happens if their airspace is busy? 360s at ES-LFMT?
The same question regarding Cannes: I flew from the north via LF8357 south of LFR138, then DR-LFMD … and the same way back. How do you negotiate your way from DR-LFMD to ET-LFTH and than further along the coast?
Just a tip : do not file the exact route you plan, it is generally not practical.
File an approximate route using IFR waypoints and navaids.
Fly using airfields, motorways, VRPs, whatever you like. Just tell each controller how you want to transit his sector.
These routes are VFR transit near south airports that are usually full of IFR arrivals (LFMT, LFMI, LFML, LFTH, LFMD and LFMN), and not too far from the cost to avoid VFRs going to far in the sea.
I just usually ask for transit via costal route (“transit côtier”), they usually give you a first point, altitude (prepare for 500ft MSL… I got this for 1 hour with 35kn wind) and you are asked to report overhead each one, which could be the case. And for Montpelier, you’ll be with TMA before arriving AM, so may have time to prepare transit. Actually for the ATC flightplan, you may just plan overhead LFMT, but prepare to proceed via SA, then ES, SW, have them in your skydemon FPL…
For Toulon/LFTH, the goal is to avoid the military port, you get clearance with them from WT (near La Ciotat, Toulon airspace) then you can go till Italy until E (Menton, 5 miles from Italy airspace). You’ll have a nice transit over the “iles du Levant” Porquerolle, Prot-Cros, la Presqu’ile de Giens, that are really nice looking legs.
Another “more simple way” is to route overhead airport, but real overhead and preferably not along the runway axes or approaches if you came to know them. This is often where you disturb them the least. A friend of mine usually go from Cannes to Perpignan VFR and just ask for a direct “overhead LFML” just after leaving the CTR, which he has most of time, just at a reasonable altitude.
Hello Tobias and All,
Just coming back on this as I flew yesterday mostly over the coast and south airport, experimenting what I just told about.
My first leg was Cannes to Montpelier in a direct route (plan + route), mostly.
Penetrating R95 after radio contact is no issue. Asking direct to LFML not possible, I have to go “BJ” VFR point then PL of the LFMC space.
I asked then Provence APP to cross overhead LFML, which was possible at least 5000ft to preserve separation in case of airliners go-around. Then after, join the coast south of LFMY after passing MTG vor. I haven’t got any special constraints as no IFR arrival at LFMY.
Then asked to go SB 1500ft, and SA before getting direct long final for LFMT, that I played with ILS. Easy peasy, nothing special.
The trip back was a bit more fun. LFMT tower asked my intentions which was “return trip to LFMD through transit côtier”, he just asked me which altitude, and 15ft was a max. I took it that I could keep for most of time.
Except moderate turbulences around 1500ft and under, I flew this way from LFMT to LFMD (1h40), but the turbulences didn’t help to keep low altitude, you can see it on SD vertical profile.
After departure, ATC guys told me to reach a VFR point that wasn’t existing (WB). For his credits, all LFMT points “SA, SB, SC, …” are quite new as they just changed them following wind turbine installation around Port Saint Louis. So he asked me “WB” that wsn’t on my updated map; so I told “unable to reach, I can’t see it on my map”, and he just says “keep the cost line heading xxx for x miles”.
Crossing LFMY axes until MTG was at 700ft.
Then I flew south of Marseille in the bay, until the Callanques, and then Toulon Airspace (R64). Nothing special except I had to keep 500ft from PT (Cap Sicié) until ST (Porquerolles), with nice views on big boat and windsurfs.
Overall return trips took some time due to longer route and 15kn headwind.
It is not complex, but you have to be prepared to reach some points and keep low altitude for some time. And take nice pictures…
The Callanques Area…
South East of Marseille, Callelongues small fishing port, Les Goudes.
La Camargues and its ponds.
Saint Victoire mount….
Hi to all of you,
just to recover this thread from six feet under, I wanted to fly to LFMU this Tuesday. Since my wife is pregnant and insists on my being at home at the evening, a friend pilot and me are planning to take off at EDSO at 03:00 Z. We want to refuel in Lyon-Bron (LFLY) and then just head on to Béziers. We plan to be there at 10 am local time. Just some little questions are remaining…
1. How do I file the flightplan with fuel stop? Normally, I am doing my flight plans step by step, which means, that I first file my flightplan from EDSO to LFLY and then, after landing in LFLY file the next one to LFMU. Since we plan to do the fuel stop within one hour, I am not quite sure, if the amount of time is enough for the new flight plan. So does it make sense to file the flight plan from LFLY to LFMU also tomorrow evening and just delay it by phone if neccessary? We are on our way VFR only…
2. Paying fuel in France: Since I both have the Total and BP Carnets, refueling should be easy. If anyone of you has experiences in refueling in LFLY and especially the duration, please let me know – perhaps then a deviation to another airfield nearby with faster handling would be appropriate.
Perhaps some of you want to join in on Tuesday? Would be glad to hear from you!
Have a nice evening, Tobias
I can answer only on the flight plans.
You have to file two. If filing both in advance, how much time you allow is according to your knowledge of how long things are likely to take. I normally allow 1hr, and one can always delay the onward one.
But if you are flying VFR, nobody really cares much, so you can land, fill up, file the 2nd one, and depart as soon as the tower says they’ve got it (I am assuming you use an electronic service like eurofpl.eu to file it). But also for LFLY-LFMU you don’t need a flight plan anyway…
Surely VFR will not require a second FPL?
Peter wrote:
But if you are flying VFR, nobody really cares much, so you can land, fill up, file the 2nd one, and depart as soon as the tower says they’ve got it (I am assuming you use an electronic service like eurofpl.eu to file it). But also for LFLY-LFMU you don’t need a flight plan anyway…
Ah… there you are right! France doesn’t need FP for inner-country-flights. So I will just need to file one for my flight from EDSO to LFLY.
Thanks :-)
On your refuelling stop: at Lyon Bron, don‘t expext any delay on the fuelling itself. Since you do have the TOTAL card, it will take only minutes (unless there is a cue at the pumps). But after that, you have to move the aircraft to a parking position, then walk over to the GAT (quite a bit of a distance…), pay, and then go back. So, all in all, it will take you an hour. If you want to make quicker stops, you need to use smaller aerodromes, where distances on the ground are shorter and there is no need to pay a landing fee. But then, these aerodromes don‘t have English ATC. So for the first few times, Bron is actually not too bada choice.
On flightplans in general: Let‘s assume you did require a flightplan also for the second flight (say you where processing to Spain). And let‘s assume you wanted to make it just a fairly short stop. Then never file your second flightplan during your stop. Get as much as possible done befire heading off from home. During your stop, you will be busy with other things. Also, VFR flightplans (at least those departing outside the UK) require pocessing by the responsible AIS office. This takes time. Contrary to what Perer wrote, you cannot just file and then depart. The French BRIA have become quite picky about that. They want at least 1 hour between filing time and off-blocks time. Skydemon doesn‘t even allow you to file with less than one hour of leadtime now. So, plan both flights from home and leave about 45 minutes of space between ETA (of the first flight) and EOBT of the second flight. Delay the second one if necessary (you can do that with the TWR during the approach, since you will be talking to them anyways).
No second FPL required here though, as already posted.
As a final point, consider if going to Beziers from Germany in one day and back again (in a fairly slow ultralight I assume) isn‘t going to be a bit too much. Departing at 5 local usually means getting up at 3:30…. with all the flying, you will likely be tired in the early afternoon. And then you will likely have to deal with more weather and heat flying back in the later in the day…
While SERA/France doesn’t require a flight plan for national VFR flights per se, I’ve always been taught that a flight plan is required for departing from or arriving to a controlled airport, which LFLY Lyon Bron is IIRC. I don’t find that spelled out in SERA, but that may be included in “any flight or portion thereof to be provided with air traffic control service”. OTOH, in practice maybe they just accept an abbreviated flight plan over the radio just before your taxi clearance for departure, and before entering the TMA or CTR for arrival.
If you use autorouter, you can also delay the next flight plan in flight by SMS or Telegram, if you’ve got connectivity.
I’m fairly sure FIS will also do it over the radio. The only thing they don’t do (any more?) is an international flight plan over the radio.
