Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

Berlin - save Tegel airport project

Well, I don’t think we need to mix things up. None of us knows which type of aircraft will be GA twenty five years from now. I’m not talking type of aircraft or how much noise they make, (just a lot fewer and smaller): I am talking airspace and landspace use.

Even if you have the cleanest aircraft flying twenty years from now, there will be nowhere for them to land in Berlin…unless TXL remains open.

If Munich was bad, Berlin is twice as bad for the trend-setting…I don know, apologies in advance but I hear (read!) you speak as if we were living in a dictatorship where minorities have no say or even rights, unless they happen to match those that the rest of people are interested in! I was candidly taught that democracies were something different, where the rights of minorities count…(or does that only work for certain types of minorities?)

Nonetheless my experience with my German friends is ALL of them are very much interested in motors and machines, yes, environmentally conscious, but motor-minded nonetheless…is that unique amongst Germans? We have two electric cars at home and fly LOP: I consider I am doing my fair share of environmental contribution.

I do think that, when we are surrrounded by thousands of COVID deaths that none of the world’s politics has been able to stop, is the right time to remind ourselves that things are done by doers, and that when you dont have the right balance, people die.

Antonio
LESB, Spain

Antonio, I support your initiatives.

LFOU, France

Antonio wrote:

I don know, apologies in advance but I hear (read!) you speak as if we were living in a dictatorship where minorities have no say or even rights, unless they happen to match those that the rest of people are interested in! I was candidly taught that democracies were something different, where the rights of minorities count…(or does that only work for certain types of minorities?)

In an ideal democracy, government derives its power from the consent of the people or, as in a minority of cases, the people are directly involved in decision making. In the latter case, usually rulemaking is quite reasonable but it will go into a mainstream vs minority balance. Most people simply are not interested in flying or GA as they see it as a rich man’s indulgence, which particularly in German speaking parts of Europe is a reason to harass it. Add to that, most Europeans are world champions when it comes to NIMBY behavior, so while they may turn up in force at air shows miles away from home but will at the same time vote against aviation when it happens in their backyard.

The current situation is quite interesting in that regard. In my region, tens of thousands of jobs depend on the airport. Consequently tens of thousands of people here profit every day from the fact that we have this international airport right in your front yard rather than the back yard. Yet, you can hear many voice their opposition to the noise that airport generates and some even now will tell you that they’d be happy if aviation would NOT rebound as it is so nice and quiet here now. That this would mean they would loose their jobs as well as their capability to travel is beyond most of their immediate view.

So even direct democracy is no guarantee whatsoever that people will actually support aviation, rather the opposite, particularly if decisions are made on a local level. In almost all cases, local communities voting on referendi about airport infrastructure and often enough also about other larger projects such as train lines, new roads or industrial areas generating work but also traffic, will vote against them to keep the rukus out of their back yards.

Infrastructure should therefore be seen on a national level, never a local level. Otherwise the NIMBY’s will torpedize any project of this sort.

However, in most European countries, democracies are not direct but representative. In these democracies the way it works in most places means that you elect politicians who then decide what your interests are. Politicians as a general trend will try very hard to get re-elected and therefore listen out to the word in the street, which often enough is distorted by some well organized lobbies who scream louder than anyone else. Way too many people can’t be bothered or rather have resigned to the fact that they won’t be heard anyway. So in the end, politicians will usually go the way of least resistance to get themselves established in a nice and well paid job, rather than seeing the big picture.

In Berlin and Munich people will not support city airports or even a decent GA infrastructure in reachable distance but instead very much follow the NIMBY principle and try to get rid of airports wherever they can. Not only there. Zurich is fighting for a GA airport to be established at Dubendorf Airbase for years and by the looks of it, it will never happen or if it does then restricted to the maximum. If it will happen, that means Zurich LSZH will be finally allowed to get rid of GA altogether. Consequently, if Dubendorf gets a Monday to Friday 9-11 and 13-17 hour operating license, weekend flying will be a thing of the past. These are the mechanisms which work everywhere.

Europe simply is in most places too crowded for people to have tolerance towards other people, even when it comes to sports venues and childrens playgrounds. Even there the NIMBY fraction regularly stop projects from happening. Unfortunately, Aviation DOES produce noise and the origin of that noise is quite visible to anyone looking skywards. Consequently, people may be interested and find it fun to drive 20-30 miles to see planes, but do not want them to overfly their garden. People want to be able to use motorways or fast trains but do not wish to live next to either. Opposition also grows to other noisy means of transport or enjoyment, such as motorcycles, open air concerts or even playgrounds or sports venues.

The only way to get over this is by national infrastructure plans, that is that airports and their use get decided on a national level, like motorways and the railway network, which often have to be pressed through local opposition in year long legal wars. International airports and hubs will usually win the upper hand there, but they traditionally do not want GA either. Small airports usually do not have this support. Quite a number of people are of the clear opinion that GA is not in their interest and quite a few of them are even right after a fashion as neither will they ever fly on a small plane, nor will they ever be in the position to use a biz jet or the likes.

So if you rely on democracy, think again. There is nothing more darwinian than democracy, as it reflects the will of a majority which will win over minorities. Democracies are NOT designed to support minorities, just the opposite. Consequently, minorities will very often have to rely on politicians to make their voices heard as in true democratic processes of majority vote, the winner takes all. To keep that balance, we are using lobbies and political processes to see that minorities do not get buried alive. Some of those are more successful, others are not. Aviation has always been absymal in this, GA in particular.

My prediction always has been that GA is a dying species and will eventually vanish as we know it, maybe be restricted to some local activities in lesser populated areas. To safe airports like Tempelhof or Tegel in the middle of a built up area where land prices are sky high and every square inch of land is contested simply is a loosing battle. If anything we can hope that established airfields in the middle of nowhere get better traffic integration to the public transport systems and that those airports which are essential to the population and therefore not contested in their existence, are forced to allow GA to use their facilites. This is more likely to achive success than trying to keep up cold war relics.

Last Edited by Mooney_Driver at 26 May 05:58
LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

Thank you @Mooney_Driver for the accurate and comprehensive explanation. Surely we all see the inconsistency (not your own but in the facts described).

It is a description of a complacent society whose wished-for but never-achieved happiness seems to be based on complaint rather than achievement…

This forum and most of us in it are living proof that achievement is more relevant than complaint in personal fulfillment:

@Peter was publicly known to complain on the crazy goings of some other aviation forums…unabated, he simply initiated what he thought should be a proper one.

Flying is a path full of risks, negatives, paperwork, costs, PPR, slots and other hurdles and their associated complaints, but most of us achieve it against the prevailing thoughts…

Just saying…

Well, I may not achieve anything on TXL, but I will try a bit nonetheless.

Last Edited by Antonio at 26 May 09:02
Antonio
LESB, Spain

Mooney_Driver wrote:

Infrastructure should therefore be seen on a national level, never a local level.

That’s exactly one of the points in my proposed letter to the EC

Antonio
LESB, Spain

Hi Antonio, your letter is fine. But we have no power.
As a reminder.
Tempelhof airfield with great history was closed 12 years ago. After that, there was a debate about the use.
Finally, the fences were kicked in and overrun! And now we have a place to grill and hang out.
What do you think happens to Tegel?

Berlin, Germany

Antonio wrote:

OTOH I have not been able to find evidence of the media-reported closure of TXL (other than the pax terminal) . Can you help me find some evidence?

Many thanks for your commitment in this matter, and that from Spain.
What is planned by the politicians can be found here:
https://www.berlintxl.de/fileadmin/05.3_Links_Downloads/EN/160323_BlnTXL_Expose_eng_Web.pdf

“The Dream of Flight has been fulfilled.” “Time for new Dreams.” “Tegel offer Galactical Opportunities:”
These sentences say a lot about the understanding of politicians and planners in Berlin. For them the game is over both for CAT and GA.
What counts for these people is the marketing of the large area at high prices, 495 ha in the City of Berlin promises a high material gain.
They don`t fly with small motor planes but with jets at the expense of taxpayers. Luxurious lounges for politicians are being created at the new BER.

Mooney_Driver wrote:

Berlin is dead for GA as much as Munich is. That is a fact.

You are right. I feel the same way.

Mooney_Driver wrote:

In Berlin and Munich people will not support city airports

That`s not true. In 2017 999,832 Berliners have voted for Tegel, 737,216 against. This result would be respected in a democracy.

Berlin, Germany

Antonio wrote:

It is a description of a complacent society whose wished-for but never-achieved happiness seems to be based on complaint rather than achievement…

Well, for a very long time we have been trying to establish democracy in our society, where the people should by consent or by active vote decide their own fate. Now in many places they do that. Those who think that democracy is a pony farm wake up to the fact that people will actually voice opinions and find majorities for them which they may not like. We GA folks are one of those, in the big picture not very important minorities, as our purpose is primarily self serving and only in parts serving others.

It’s a tough choice to make, as the Corona crisis also has shown. You have those who mistake democracy with total freedom, which it certainly is not, you have those who even think democracy means anarchy, which is worse. As a consequence of those misconceptions, the western world has fallen into a crisis which is not yet anywhere close to being even estimated as to it’s severity because people proved unwilling and unable to reckognize the danger they were in and consent to give up some liberties for a limited time in order to get the great collective of people back on normal footing. To many of them, their perceived freedom was obviously more important than their own lifes and the lifes of their next of kin. That is the degree of egoism we have cultivated with these perceptions.

What the Corona crisis has also shown is the boundless ignorance and outright evil of mobilized masses which are clearly unable to analyze action and reaction of processes surrounding this pandemic. In a microcosmos for the lack of a better word, this crisis has shown quite dramatically the inability of western societies to see a larger picture than their own immediate needs and wishes even if it means mutual destruction. This is something which will need to be contemplated on a broader level as well.

The fact is that in a basic democracy what goes is determined by the single majority of the voting population. Were that to be implemented 100%, minorities would simply disappear or start fighting guerillia wars because majorities will always vote their own convenience over the good of others. In our countries we are far from basic democracies but we elect governments to see to it that democracies don’t turn into Darwinian dystrophies, trying to protect minorities by drawing up regulation for daily living and by explaining to the larger population why a certain issue should be voted upon in what way. Most countries have even gone further and done away with direct participation of the population out of the legislative process altogether. Unfortunately this has created another monster of bureaucracies and politicians who deem fit to actually overrule the democratic processes they propagate, as is the case in Berlin, where, as I just was reminded, people actually voted for keeping Tegel. If I remember right however, those around Tegel itself did not want to keep it, but the whole of Berlin would have.

So where are our wishes for GA airports, for keeping open city airports in cities which have long outgrown a healthy social mass into an overcrowded moloch? People who never ever experience the actual sound of silence? People who face a daily struggle for survival on many fronts? Will there be a majority found for something only a few hundred people at best will have active use of? It appears that in Berlin, this was the case, yet the politicians elected by the same people have decided differently. In other places, I would not expect the population to be so wise or rather not care.

GA can continue and will as there are still enough people to dream the dream and as long as there is enough wealth around to keep these planes flying. With the current situation however, millions losing jobs, a whole society on the verge of moral and material collapse due to a massive change in how we can do things, it is highly questionable how any such activities will survive.

I do not question your motivation and wish you luck, if you launch a petition I will sign it gladly. But I have no illusions about keeping such airports open any more than eventual return to flight of Concorde or similar such windmill fights. I rather try to focus on the feasible.

Last Edited by Mooney_Driver at 26 May 12:33
LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

highflyer wrote:

That`s not true. In 2017 999,832 Berliners have voted for Tegel, 737,216 against. This result would be respected in a democracy.

I was not aware of that. But if I remember right, they also voted for Tempelhof to no avail.

Berlin has been like this for a long time unfortunately.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

Mooney_Driver wrote:

I was not aware of that.

Which kind of puts your claim below in some doubt.

The fact is that in a basic democracy what goes is determined by the single majority of the voting population. Were that to be implemented 100%, minorities would simply disappear or start fighting guerillia wars because majorities will always vote their own convenience over the good of others.

I think you very much misjudge what majorities will “always” do.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top