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ADF and European navigation (merged)

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS4No1476.pdf ORS4 1476 local copy

While it sounds promising the section it refers to in the ANO 2016 is just for airways. I fear UK Europe will never achieve the safety standard of the FAA in my lifetime. The FAA allowing NDB overlay GPS procedures as standard for GPS with the correct database, since forever, or at least over a decade.

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

I think that option has not been available to German pilots, due to their annual “IFR certificate”.

That’s all history. It’s EU law. As stated before: not flying ifr procedures with ndb → not required.

always learning
LO__, Austria

I have been flying NDB approaches since I took my IR in 1978 and there is no way I have ever been able to reliably fly an NDB hold and approach as accurately as I can now using the GPS.

Because they fly them using GPS, like practically everybody else, and there has never been any enforcement.

Hundreds of SR22s were imported into Europe with no ADF and no DME and nobody ever got picked up for it. There were rumours spread around of ramp checks and pilot busts but none ever checked out.

My guess is that a prosecution would fail (in the UK) if you got a lawyer with even half a brain.

Also most ADFs available to GA have been crap in reliability. The KR87 is pretty good, and the Becker one probably likewise. The rest is mostly junk and when it packs up, people don’t bother repairing it. I think that option has not been available to German pilots, due to their annual “IFR certificate”.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

If only we lived in Sweeden.

There are 4 airports with a 75 miles radius of where I life. All 4 have NDB approaches and only one has a GPS approach. I often wonder way people splash out 15K on the latest GPS and at the same time pull the ADF.

A_and_C wrote:

Wick, Reykjavík, Narssarssuaq and Oxford have instrument procedures and NDB based approaches.

Wick, Narssarsuaq and Reykjavik have NDB approaches, but they also have other approaches to the same runways.

Oxford does has one runway where only an NDB approach is available.

So of the eight airports you mention, you would only need an ADF at one of them and for one runway direction. But if that’s your operational needs, then sure.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

where an NDB approach could theoretically be helpful

I don’t think an NDB approach is helpful anywhere anymore, with GPS

It is useful where

  • there is a GPS approach but your IFR GPS doesn’t have an AFMS authorising GPS approaches, in which case you fly the NDB approach overtly but actually navigating with the GPS (I was doing that for many years, until I got the AFMS)
  • there is no other IAP but for a better assurance of obstacle clearance, and for the benefit of ATC watching you and wondering what the hell you are doing flying a DIY IAP, you fly the NDB one, again using the GPS
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

This has been “in discussion” for at least 20 years

There is now a Notice of Proposed Amendment working its way through the EASA system. A concrete proposal to the European Commission is expected this Autumn — so it is no longer just “in discussion”.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Indeed, the UK still has a very few airfields where an NDB approach could theoretically be helpful, i.e. where there are no ILS/LOC/VOR approaches at the same time.

Of those which are realistic GA destinations:

  • Carlisle has NDB approaches only
  • St. Mary is the same
  • Land’s End does also have RNAV approaches, but allegedly, they will not clear non-based pilots for this procedure, so NDB approaches are the only alternatives.

Then there are few airfields which have both NDB and RNAV approaches. The low end of GA being operated pretty much on a shoestring in the UK, many “IFR” aircraft have not yet been fitted with approach-approved GPSes (not even LNAV only), so NDB is the only alternative. Alderney comes to mind (though not technically "UK).

Practically speaking, one could of course rather fly a DIY-approach using GPS, rather then NDB, especially at those coastal airfields.

Last Edited by boscomantico at 02 Sep 07:57
Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

when the proposed change to part-NCO allowing GPS fix substitution is approved,

This has been “in discussion” for at least 20 years

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
178 Posts
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