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What are the rules or limits on cross-border ATC coordination?

There is however a big difference between lower airspace (say below FL200) and upper airspace.

In this particular case, I cannot imagine there is any traffic there, so close to the mountains, particularly anything requiring a push down from 170 to 160. It looked like a LoA issue where Austria wanted 160 and either (a) initially insisted on it or (b) the last Munich sector controller had not called them and just wanted to enforce the 160.

ATC will generally grant you more or less anything if hazardous wx avoidance is stated as the reason. Especially if it involves a climb, which is by far the usual case. Sometimes they press hard and in this case they certainly did. The other memorable cases where they pressed hard I posted in the other thread. Probably the French military areas (east of Paris, or near the W coast) will produce the toughest resistance even if you tell them you are “avoiding a CB”, and you more or less have to just resign yourself to something blowing up, but nothing does (OTOH I had never landed in France after one of those).

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

“assertions above are incorrect.”

If you file via EBBU FIR you are capped at FL240 max.

EBST, Belgium

“ATC will generally grant you more or less anything if hazardous wx avoidance is stated as the reason. ”

Even without a particular reason. I try to keep light GA at its highest cruising level when they still have a long way to go and 99,9 % the next sector accepts my request. Especially Langen ACC. They are a delight to work with.

EBST, Belgium

In theory you need to be able to achieve 3 degree gradients while in CAS? The published service ceiling for normal aspirated piston, or some turboprops on a hot day, is not 3 degrees, so arguably planning should allow a 500 fpm climb for the planned weight as service ceiling. In practice a lightly loaded RG SEP might plan for only F130 even if the service ceiling might be F180?

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

That would be a controversial POV

Generally speaking, a non turbo plane with a POH ceiling of x feet, and (as with most IFR tourers) does +1000fpm at sea level, it will do +500fpm at x/2 feet.

For a TB20 that would mean not filing anything above 9k, or 10k, depending whether you use the FAA POH or the UK CAA POH.

Which would IMHO be silly because it takes “only” about 30 mins to reach FL160 (ISA conditions) which is pretty reasonable. In say ISA+15 it might take 45 mins…

AIUI you are supposed to advise ATC if unable to achieve 500fpm (in either direction) but it is blindingly obvious that nearly always they don’t care if a light GA plane climbs at say +300fpm. Very occassionally they notice and ask if you are still climbing to FLxxx

EDIT: in nice wx I file FL100, but one needs the (ATC authorised) option to climb above wx.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

If you file via EBBU FIR you are capped at FL240 max.

So what of going on at FL250 and above?

Last Edited by Cobalt at 24 Jun 21:32
Biggin Hill

In this particular case, I cannot imagine there is any traffic there, so close to the mountains, particularly anything requiring a push down from 170 to 160. It looked like a LoA issue where Austria wanted 160 and either (a) initially insisted on it or (b) the last Munich sector controller had not called them and just wanted to enforce the 160.

I’m working as ATCO in Vienna Control Center, and the most likely reason for your descend is to avoid an ACC sector above. We have Approach Units working up to FL160 (above are different ACC sectors). Nearly every day at every time all sectors are regulated and can usually only take traffic which filed the appropiate FL in their FPL. This is absolutely necessary, because we are already working beyond our limits and in addition we experience CB activity nearly every day. That means every sector is working on it’s limit. If someone didn’t file a requested FL in his FPL, he won’t get it.

BUT: of course we make exceptions if higher FL/dct routings are necessary due to weather. It always depends on the situation. For example: ABC123 is cruising at FL360 and requesting FL370, but FL370 is a different sector above which is already working on it limits. Then we try to find another solution, like deviating with right/left turns. But this is the last ultimate action. Usually climbs due to weather are no problem at all.

In this case with Munich, I really don’t know the reason why they didn’t offer more help.

Last but not least:
PLEASE only file FLs which you can safely fly (including possible CB’s en-route). You can not expect FLs which differ from your FPL.
If there is no other way to get out of CB activity and you can not get a higher FL, declare EMERGENCY. It’s paperwork for everyone, but you are safe!

Even the big planes have to stay very low some times. LOWW-EDDS FL120 (A320), LOWW-LFMN FL160 (until Italian border)…

Cobalt wrote:

So what of going on at FL250 and above?

Different sector?

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Different sector?

MUAC, Rhein and thus a lot of overflying tfc

EBST, Belgium

PLEASE only file FLs which you can safely fly (including possible CB’s en-route). You can not expect FLs which differ from your FPL.

That is not possible, for piston traffic, for all kinds of reasons. I am not sure whether you are a pilot, @around-the-world (your profile is empty) but if you were you would know there are many tradeoffs involving aircraft performance, range, terrain, headwinds, even oxygen issues. Typically, over the Alps, one will file the MEA which is generated by the Eurocontrol routing tool, which varies from say FL120 (say N of LJLJ) to FL180 (say just E of Mt Blanc) and FL140 in the middle (N of SRN). Then you fly that if you can, but if there are buildups you have to climb. It is pretty hazardous to be in IMC if there is embedded convective activity; even without convective you may need ice protection to be running flat out if you are at say FL160 and -5C (been there, done it). And most of us have no radar. And Europe does not have weather tools enabling the tops to be established to better than a few thousand feet at best. And they rise through the day, perhaps from FL120 to FL160 during the time you have been airborne! So you will get GA pilots asking for climbs. And who not let them? There is nobody else in that airspace. You have to be flexible because safety (i.e. lives) depends on it very directly. Nobody wants to declare a mayday because they might get busted for inadequate planning etc which would be a travesty of justice, seen by anybody who knows how aeroplanes fly, particularly in the European system.

Normally the system works just fine but very very occassionally one gets an ATCO who has dug himself a hole and won’t move.

We also don’t really like getting hit by lightning. One guy here got a €20k bill… lots of damage. My A&P/IA engineer (I have just done a 50hr service with him today) has a night job on Airbuses, and the other day his task was to find all the lightning strikes on one plane. He counted 25 of them. Showed me the photos. The crew didn’t know about most of them!

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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