Jujupilote wrote:
the flexibility of the local administation and their view of GA : they can more or less kill their local GA if they want too.
I think this is a very valid point. PPR requirements of several hours before (not to speak of 24 or 48) and slots kill more GA than anything else, as it means that flexibility that GA actually is all about is lost. One example which is very hard to do for instance is to fly to the Aero Friedrichshafen out of a slot airport: You need an arrival slot which needs to match the departure slot (which hardly happens) and so many people simply drive.
I think Friedrichshafen’s slot misery is one bit which shows why GA is in trouble: They have an aviation show, not an airplane in flight and visitors massively restricted.
Profit
If the system allows a profit at what ever level aircraft Manufacture, Airfield ownership, flight instruction etc then it will flourish. If it doesn’t it wont.
He said “I’ve done a survey William and the average age of the pilots here is 61 so in 15 years time will I have any customers left flying?”
I think that’s because most of those people who ever get time and money tend to get it in their 50s (not before) and those (relatively few) who get it much earlier tend to be after a good social scene (i.e. interesting female presence 
) which is missing in most European GA. We have had tons of threads on this topic e.g. why so few women in GA. The issue is self reinforcing because women are more social (regardless of age) and don’t like to hang out in the present cantankerous scene either. This is one big change since e.g. 40 years ago – according to the “old” guys I know.
I doubt this is different in any country, but some places have a more active club scene. OTOH the clubs don’t generally encourage people to spread their wings…
the level of organization and concord between all aviation stakeholders
Yes – this is a huge difference between Europe and the USA. It is evident at all levels, in organisations, in clubs, even in pilot forums Accordingly, the regulators don’t need to listen to anybody.
I think Friedrichshafen’s slot misery is one bit which shows why GA is in trouble: They have an aviation show, not an airplane in flight and visitors massively restricted.
EDNY is a joke. However it appears that the airport basically hates the exhibition activities and does nothing to make it easier. OTOH you probably need some level of organisation of arrivals, because European PPL training does not generally teach a high level of autonomy / thinking for oneself. Recently I flew into an airfield and arrived shortly before opening time, so I waited overhead at about 4000ft and made some radio calls to see who else was waiting, got replies from two who were some distance away, and as I was on late downwind four others, who were waiting in radio silence hoping to jump in quick, made “base leg” calls. I got out of there and came back after 15 mins. TCAS was like an xmas tree… Imagine doing that at EDNY. It is their arrogant way of selling slots and cancelling flight plans which miss them that’s the problem IMHO. But they are paying the price: fly-in attendance is perhaps 50% of 10 years ago. If it wasn’t for its use as a social / meet-up location, I reckon Aero EDNY would have collapsed by now, due to lack of new stuff on show.
The only reason GA is reasonably free and unregulated in Scandinavia is because it’s such a small field in scarcely populated nations.
That’s true for all of VFR activity. It is a part of the political quid pro quo. The price tag of “free flying” and deregulation is that ATC can always say “remain OCAS”. The moment they lose that ability (as in Eurocontrol IFR) the whole game changes, starting with the much harder IR.
The only reason GA is reasonably free and unregulated in Scandinavia is because it’s such a small field in scarcely populated nations. GA flies under the radar completely.
Under who’s radar exactly ? Sorry to say, but you have no idea. GA has always been a big part of the common culture here, because people need to get around. Even today, airplane is the only usable means of transportation along the coast due to terrain. It would cost an insane amount of money to build proper roads or railway. It will never be done.
We have 3-4 larger airports in Norway. Gardermoen being he largest by far. Then Sola, Flesland, Værnes. These airports finances all the rest. That means the passengers at these airports finances all the other airports. Some of the smaller airports may have only 2-4 daily scheduled routes, but are needed for ambulance, security and as part of the greater defense system.
You are right that it is relatively free, but it’s far from unregulated.
Still, by doing nothing, I bet we would be bulldozed over by over eager bureaucrats and opportunistic capital forces. But that is one key element as I wrote above. We are united, not divided, and this organisation, NLF, do a tremendous job lobbying and fighting for GA. We all participate in this. Just during the last couple of years, we have had one TV report on national TV from my gliding club. We have had the minister of transportation coming along for a ride in a Cessna at my club explaining and showing him GA. The local newspaper made a big reportage when my son flew his first solo a year ago. A month ago the we invited the new CEO at the airport (Værnes) for her first ride in a microlight ever, with media coverage. The latest thing just after was a reportage in the news about the “living” at the airport. Then the journalist got a acro ride in the Safir with paper and video coverage.
You have to be visible. And you have to be visible all the time, not just when things are going the wrong way. Showing a positive side has much better effect.
Under the radar AOPA operates like that by the looks of it, we certainly don’t.
Peter wrote:
EDNY is a joke. However it appears that the airport basically hates the exhibition activities and does nothing to make it easier.
I don’t think the airport actually wants this horror but it’s imposed on them by the DFS and LBA because both can not envision any kind of self regulated event of this kind. Up to a few years back, there was an event called Tankosh which worked fine without slots and anything but the owners were hassled into submission by the regulators eventually and gave it up. It’s simply the CYA mentality of all those bureaucrats who prevent common sense in such a case. Likewise that there are no more flying exhibits: After the Ramstein desaster these are forbidden in Germany.
I did have a talk with some people of the Messe there and they are well aware of it. It is a total farce that they have to send people to Mengen and Leutkirch and drive them by busses.
Generally I wonder whether there could not be a rulemaking within EASA to stop abuse of infrastructure by overzealous (or simply cowardly) CAAs and other organisations. e.g. to attach a string to the licensing of the airport so that their approval depends on the way they treat traffic. Incidently, that would also do away with most of the handling abuse. But I am not a European lawyer who knows if something like this is possible. But I know that some larger airports elsewhere who wanted to totally ban GA were told to stuff that idea on the grounds of “Duty of Service to Aviation” attached to their license. Maybe that is something those who have an idea about it might look into?
Peter wrote:
but some places have a more active club scene. OTOH the clubs don’t generally encourage people to spread their wings…
There is a slow and steady shift from GA to ULM in France, lamented by the older GA pilots. I have been a member of four aeroclubs in France, all different. The first was small with one plane that was usually available during the week. I made a number of trips as far afield as the UK and Spain. The president encouraged people to fly and there were one or two old hands who liked to organise threesomes, one leg each. It folded as they did not have enough money for an engine overhaul. The next was a much larger club with four or more aircraft with less availability. They were all different and one needed to be laché (instructor sign off) in each one and to have flown it in the last three months. I did make a trip to Normandy in a Cessna 152 and a couple of X/Cs in the Robin. There did not seem to be any real group activity and only the regular members knew each other.
The third was essentially a UL club with a couple of ULMs which flew late on Sundays if there was no wind. We had it to ourselves for 12 years and made full use of the excellent club house and hangar. Being a grass strip it did get waterlogged in winter, but one could fly at least 10 months of the year. Every year they had a knees-up with food, drink and music, attended by 100-150 people…
My current one has two planes (TB9 and DR400) which are usually available during the week. The club averages 450 h per year which is quite low. It is reckoned that 300 h per plane per year is break even. Members like to get together for barbeques etc, but fly little and only locally. Most of the hours are instruction. I would like to fly with others but no-one is particularly interested, a pity as I have French and English FCL055. At a recent barbeque, I sat next to a pilot who replied laconically to me and I don’t think spoke to anyone else.
A pilot shop in Toulouse organises regular breakfast fly-ins which are always well attended. More could be done in France if pilots would overcome their natural reserve. The Club Méditerranée (ClubMed) was a success (and despite ups and downs is still) as they had trained organisers (GO or gentils organisateurs) to get people together socially. Most campsites have all kinds of organised activities. The French feel awkward talking to people they don’t know.
Simon
AdamFrisch wrote:
The only reason GA is reasonably free and unregulated in Scandinavia is because it’s such a small field in scarcely populated nations. GA flies under the radar completely. The greater masses don’t know about it and it’s therefore not subject to a lot of scrutiny and over-regulation. But you better believe that if it got any bigger, and suddenly appeared on the radar, it would be regulated to within an inch of its life. So it’s not because they’re lovers of personal freedom or great friends of aviation – it’s because it’s an oversight so far.
One aspect I miss in the debate so far is affordability. GA has to be an affordable activity or it will simply die out. William’s post above hinted at this. As Peter correctly pointed out, time and money required to fly GA tend to be concentrated among those over 50. This is not a good basis for a healthy developmentof GA. The underlying reasons are manifold and cannot all be tackled by GA itself, the main reason probably being our economic and political system failing the young people.
But the cost side of things certainly can be addressed by actors in GA. Fees, fuel costs, costs of parts etc., many of these have grown disproportionately since the heydays of GA. Those making a nice profit from GA now will soon have milked their own cows to death. This is also why I think Bathman’s argument is fundamentally flawed.
Peter wrote:
That’s true for all of VFR activity. It is a part of the political quid pro quo. The price tag of “free flying” and deregulation is that ATC can always say “remain OCAS”.
I see no correlation like that for VFR is the US, for any kind of aircraft. The term ‘OCAS’ isn’t used, because most VFR is in Class E (or higher) so already in controlled airspace. Whether the pilot wants to talk to ATC in Class E is up to him on any given flight. The only question mark is when ATC is occasionally too busy to deal with traffic advisories for en route VFR, but in Class E that has no bearing on access. In Classes B, C or D airspace ATC is required but access is no issue for US VFR, which is also in accordance with ICAO recommendations. In the US, Class A doesn’t exist below 18,000 ft.
The view I have of US vs Europe,
In the US, GA has a utility value where people use it a lot for travel purpose with big airports (probably very economical to build “federal” airports than maintaining their “regional” highway/railways) and has the whole lot that goes with like any large consumer product: good weather, qualified IR pilots, cheap/available fuel and maintenance.
In Europe, public transports tend to be cheap and well integrated from the roman age, in addition with low cost airliners the GA can no longer compete as utility and what is left is training and fun, that is why in Europe it is mainly flight schools and clubs. However, the fun has stopped long time ago as cheap other fun appeared (e.g. online) and the GA scene in Europe as the future of the TV…
What could bring it back is shiny new brand airplanes (in Europe people get excited on electric airplanes compared to the US as now it has more fun than travel utility, see what happens in Micro/ULM market) or a future air travel innovation (not sure if this is will come back: anyone who learns in a flying in clubs/aeroclubs, will have no incentive/dreams to go that far)
