Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

What determines whether an aircraft is IFR certified?

theoretically you could carry out an IFR flight without any radio navigation equipment at all if the flight could be safely conducted using pilotage.

That may be true in say UK Class G, where IFR is legal non-radio and must thus be legal without carrying a radio

But no way can it be legal in any practical (navigation in IMC, or any flight subject to ATC directions which could thus place you into IMC) scenario.

I know people used to fly in IMC using dead reckoning – google on e.g. STENDEC for a famous one – but that was before most of us were born.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

But no way can it be legal in any practical (navigation in IMC, or any flight subject to ATC directions which could thus place you into IMC) scenario.
Well, I did write “theoretically”, didn’t I? And in your example you couldn’t conclude the flight safely by pilotage, could you?

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Hmmm, loads of IFR in IMC flying was done 1920s to 1950s, using a compass and stopwatch… Obviously you could not do a CAT3 approach that way, but e.g. descent over the sea in OVC001 was “100% safe”

Fate is the Hunter is your friend.

Otherwise, IFR in VMC is just playing with words. It is VMC and “you can’t possibly crash”.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

Hmmm, loads of IFR in IMC flying was done 1920s to 1950s, using a compass and stopwatch

And much later than that. In Russia, lots of IFR flying was done purely with an ADF and with other old fashioned means. The AN2 for instance only had a com and an ADF and flew IFR quite a lot.

Similarily, there are quite a lot of military planes flying IFR without half the equipment we carry. I for instance got really annoyed when some military types were trying to make believe the Swiss F5 Tiger was not capable to be upgraded to even fly an ILS when it is a story of maybe 10k CHF per unit to do just that, but insisted they needed new airplanes at a couple of millions each. Simply not true. Often enough bureaucratic idiocy is the major obstacle.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

Peter wrote:

But no way can it be legal in any practical (navigation in IMC, or any flight subject to ATC directions which could thus place you into IMC) scenario.

I was referring to this particular new regulation:

AMC1 NCO.IDE.A.195 Navigation equipment
NAVIGATION WITH VISUAL REFERENCE TO LANDMARKS
Where aeroplanes, with the surface in sight, can proceed according to the ATS flight plan by navigation with visual reference to landmarks, no additional equipment is needed to comply with NCO.IDE.A.195 (a)(1).

But then NCO.IDE.A (a)(1) goes like

(a) Aeroplanes operated over routes that cannot be navigated by reference to visual landmarks shall be equipped with any navigation equipment necessary to enable them to proceed in accordance with: (1) the ATS flight plan; if applicable; and …

Self-contradictory? in the end I am not quite sure what to make of it.

The point here is that very little nav equipment is required to satisfy NCO.IDE.A.195 for IFR, but I fear that the question about exactly how little might easily make owners either over-equip or risk an unpleasant legal discussion.

How about sending ATS flight plans? Will an IFR plan with only e.g. GORY/S and PBN/B2 be accepted anywhere? everywhere? does it matter where? or is it just up to the pilot to make sure that he has the equipment he needs, incl. for the contingency plan?

huv
EKRK, Denmark

I have been filing PBN/B2 since for ever… I have a vague recollection that somebody somewhere wanted something else but don’t remember where.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

huv wrote:

Self-contradictory? in the end I am not quite sure what to make of it.
Certainly not self-contradictory, but the part in the AMC is redundant.

How about sending ATS flight plans? Will an IFR plan with only e.g. GORY/S and PBN/B2 be accepted anywhere?

I just tried an IFR flight plan ESKC-ESOW with N/S (i.e. no COM/NAV equipment!) and it validated…

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Airborne_Again wrote:

IFR flight plan ESKC-ESOW with N/S (i.e. no COM/NAV equipment!) and it validated

Interesting.

huv
EKRK, Denmark

Would you get away with no RNAV? If I wanted to fly our 172 with just COM/NAV/DME/ADF and a VFR GPS?

mh
Aufwind GmbH
EKPB, Germany

mh wrote:

Would you get away with no RNAV? If I wanted to fly our 172 with just COM/NAV/DME/ADF and a VFR GPS?

That depends on the airspace. Sweden has RNAV airspace only above FL95.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden
110 Posts
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top