skydriller wrote:
So what are all those restricted areas I was asking to fly through 2-3 weeks ago…?? And I am pretty sure that at least once I was talking to a military controller about crossing airspace…though I could be wrong on the last bit…
If you tell me what restricted area(s) you’re talking about I could possibly answer the question.
And I am pretty sure that at least once I was talking to a military controller about crossing airspace…though I could be wrong on the last bit…
There are no military controllers. Military airbases all have civilian ATC. There are fighter control units, but they’re not ATC and they don’t issue clearances — but they can request and relay clearances from ATC. They have “military-sounding” callsigns — typically names of predator animals.
Airborne_Again wrote:
The opposite in Sweden. In fact Sweden doesn’t have any military airspace or even any military ATC at all. Military traffic are assigned sectors on a tactical basis.
So what are all those restricted areas I was asking to fly through 2-3 weeks ago…?? And I am pretty sure that at least once I was talking to a military controller about crossing airspace…though I could be wrong on the last bit…
Dont get me wrong, Scandinavia has so far been the best place Ive flown in Europe outside of France, and the ATC service is actually better IMHO. The only “ouch” point is some of the fuel and “handling” prices at certain airports.
Regards, SD..
Peter wrote:
In France, I have been told by French pilots, the military own all the air as a default position and allow civilian traffic use it. I don’t how it works in other countries.
Not sure where that comes from? roughly 75% of France airspace is managed by civilian ATC by default and 98% of French airspace can be used by civilian aircraft:
With notable exceptions (e.g. Iraq/Afghanistan), most countries will have their airspace run by civilian ATC by default, maybe Netherlands 
?
Peter wrote:
In France, I have been told by French pilots, the military own all the air as a default position and allow civilian traffic use it. I don’t how it works in other countries.
The opposite in Sweden. In fact Sweden doesn’t have any military airspace or even any military ATC at all. Military traffic are assigned sectors on a tactical basis.
You can’t give what you don’t have. ATC can ask everything they want, but they don’t always GET what they ask. It has been mentioned before, but an unexpected entry into military airspace can ruin a whole excercise that was planned weeks beforehand. I wouldn’t take this lightly. If ATC can’t give you what you want then they will go for the next best thing. This could be 40 degrees to the left iso 15 to the right, but if it solves your problem I’d take it.
I think the reason ATC can be reluctant to allow an avoid into mil airspace is because they don’t “own” it.
In France, I have been told by French pilots, the military own all the air as a default position and allow civilian traffic use it. I don’t how it works in other countries.
I guess ATC can accommodate pilot requests as long as you explicitly tell them you need XXXX and from then you will maintain your own traffic/terrain separation and they own airspace (if you deviate from planned IFR route/level), as you can’t have your “change of route/level” request accepted and expect them to bear traffic/terrain responsibility
In the other hand, they may not be able to clear you to others airspace (if that takes you out of your accepted IFR route/level)? or you are probably talking to the wrong person? for clearance to nearby airspace and terrain/traffic separation outside your assigned IFR route/level you are expected to just fly as any VFR flies…
If you are VFR OCAS then you have no assurance of getting a CAS transit, to avoid wx or for any other reason. If you are VFR in CAS then the “avoid wx” situation is the same as IFR in CAS.
I dont see the difference?
An alteration due to weather is a request in either circumstances, although not a required request if OCAS, unless taking you into CAS. It surely can be denied (for example if it would result in a loss of seperation with other traffic) but there is always an expectation of an alternative contract being negotiated. Ultimately a pilot may well declare an emergency if all else fails.
OCAS the pilot may require a course that penetrates CAS or a military zone, and, in the same way, I think there is an expectation that AT will co-ordinate, obtain a clearance, squawk and handover. In my experience they do, and I cant think of a good reason why they wouldnt. In any case, the pilot has the same option of declarinng an emergency.
I also dont see why the pilots expectation at the start of a flight should be any different? The expectation is to complete the trip, in the case of a flight in CAS or OCAS it may well end up not being as filed or planned, but ATC are there to do their best to expedite the flight and provide the required clearances (of course a clearance through CAS may not be granted, and, in the same way, a clearance as filed may be denied).
The pilot is the only person that can decide whether a “diversion” due to weather is necessary; ATC are not in the cockpit. This is a primary command function and I think there should be no doubt in a pilot’s mind that the option is available, albeit it is up to ATC to provide all the necessary information in order for the pilot to make a judgement – for example, request 20 degrees left, aha, I have high speed military traffic in that sector not working me, unable, might leave you wanting to explore an alternative diversion. The answer surely must always be if you are going to grant me that heading to avoid weather, why not? I would be surprised if AT did not give an answer, and, perhaps, reflect on the answer if it was clearly in inadequate excuse, given there is now a record on the tape.
The interesting thing here is that ATC have less ability to grant an avoid due to wx if it goes into military airspace. But they still have to do it. It means more work for them.
I guess the bottom line is that they are likely (in some places, evidently) to make you press a lot harder.
Peter wrote:
If you are VFR OCAS then ATC has no obligation beyond the ICAO FIS.
And the situation is exactly the same for IFR. (At least in class G airspace. In class F it is different.)
