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What is expected by the controller when he issues a "join downwind"

As what_next I’m unfamiliar with Belgian procedures, but agree with him and Bosco that you should have joined mid-field. This, btw, is also the standard procedure in the US (and IIRC everywhere else I’ve flown so far), leaving the crazy OH join in the UK aside for a moment…..

Last Edited by 172driver at 13 Mar 02:38

I would also agree – join mid downwind. And the suggestion that the controller wanted you to join a left downwind is absolutely incorrect.

EHLE / Lelystad, Netherlands, Netherlands

First of all, @jfw: good question !

I also think that the atco wanted you to join middle of right-hand downwind and expected you to proceed as direct as possible.

However, ATC should have cleared you for a right-hand downwind, iso just plain downwind. Unless a circuit north of the field is explicitly forbidden, I don’t remember… In case of doubt: challenge them.

When I took the radio course and took the test (long time ago), the radio call for downwind was indeed the beginning of downwind. But isn’t the beginning of downwind different for every type of aircraft ? I think that a radio call for downwind corresponding to the beginning of that leg is only relevant when flying a complete circuit from tkof ’till landing.

But I remember the radio course, I remember the examinator (Bestuur der Luchtvaart) and so I understand your confusion ;-)

EBST, Belgium

In the UK, at an ATC airfield, this would not have been done this way. ATC will tell you where they want you to join. Mid-downwind joins are rare IME, except after a go-around when ATC can issue a “you can turn early downwind” instruction.

If I say I am joining downwind, or am told by ATC to do so, I will position myself, probably outside the ATZ, so I enter the downwind leg directly into its start.

BTW (don’t want to divert this good thread, but it was mentioned above) the overhead join which the UK is famous for on non-UK pilot forums is not that common, and almost nobody does it unless forced to. It is sometimes demanded at FISO/A-G (non ATC) airfields where the man on the ground thinks he is ATC and behaves out of line. There used to be a man with a handheld radio at Panshanger (now closed) who used to tell people to do a right hand overhead join (which is the hardest combination to work out) just for a laugh. One problem is that most new UK PPLs cannot do a straight-in join… never been taught that.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

jfw wrote:

It’s the plane encounter that confuses me on what was expected by the controller….
Look at the chart. You will se that the flight path you took to the beginning of the downwind put you right on the departure route. So the encounter really should not be surprising and — at least in hindsight — should make it clear that the controller did not expect you to follow that flight path.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Actually the “join downwind” is a fairly new thing in Norway AFAIK (new in relative terms as a standard procedure at least). You are supposed to join midpoint. But it depends where you are coming from. You can just as often often get cleared to join base or cleared to join final. I have never heard cleared to join at the beginning of downwind leg. For AFIS (RMZ), it is essentially the same, but when the tower say “runway free”, you just do whatever you feel is best. At places where radio is not mandatory, and no other descriptions are given, left hand circuits are assumed, and you are expected to come at 1500 ft AGL, do an “overhead join” from right downwind 90 degree across the field and join downwind at 1000 ft. The 90 degree overhead, is mainly to signal to people on the ground that you intend to land. Many of the small fields can be awkwardly placed in the terrain though, and special procedures exist.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

airways wrote:

However, ATC should have cleared you for a right-hand downwind, iso just plain downwind. Unless a circuit north of the field is explicitly forbidden, I don’t remember… In case of doubt: challenge them.

Unless I had an explicit instruction to join left downwind for 07, I would absolutely not cross the runway overhead.

LFPT, LFPN

humm… I am still confused. As I have not flown a lot from EBCI I am not familiar with the “local habits”. I enquired a local flight instructor for his views. I will let you know.
I am sorry if I misled some of you with the instruction. ATC specified it was a right-hand downwind.

Where I am confused is that I have learned that “downwind” implicitly means “beginning of downwind” and that should it be elsewhere ATC issues a clear instruction as of where it expects you to join (I understand that @Jan_Olieslagers and @Peter have similar views and that @airways has learned the same but would have done as a majority of you – join mid right-hand downwind)

Lesson learned: in case of doubt explicitly ask for clarification to ATC

jfw
Belgium: EBGB (Grimbergen, Brussels) - EBNM (Namur), Belgium

Isn’t the VFR route map fairly obvious? Green is RW 07, red is RW25. You shall use the green routes, and follow the arrows, not fly against them as you did This leaves you no other option but to fly straight into the field from SA, that is to midpoint downwind.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

Jan_Olieslagers wrote:

downwind” with no more detail means, implicitly, “beginning of downwind” (yes yes, @WN, even in retarded BE)

What exactly do you mean to tell me by writing this kind of bullsh**?

Every procedure we use in civilian flying has once been described by ICAO. No (or almost no) country in the world has adopted the full ICAO standards as they are, but has introduced numerous national exemptions and peculiarities. Especially concerning visual flight. Luckily the instrument procedures are standardised 99% worldwide, a reason why many pilots, once instrument rated, do not want to fly VFR abroad any more. Too many booby traps to step into…

Now I was unable (and I don’t really care enough) to browse through the Belgian AIP deeply enough to locate their preferred traffic pattern joining instructions. But the one of the northwestern neighbor, the Netherlands, was easy to find: http://www.ais-netherlands.nl/aim/2017-02-16-AIRAC/eAIP/html/eAIP/EH-ENR-1.2-en-GB.html#ssid-1109062516058
This is also how I always thought it is supposed to be done in Germany and many other countries. But since I have no access the German VFR AIP and no time to browse through all the others, I can not be certain.

Last Edited by what_next at 13 Mar 11:36
EDDS - Stuttgart
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