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What is expected by the controller when he issues a "join downwind"

I was at the CAA today and posed this question to a long time CAA employee (who also has a lot of experience on all GA types.) He said, without hesitation or doubt, that he would join at the beginning of the downwind leg.

I have asked that the CAA think about the issue and put advice in the forthcoming Skyway Code.

EGKB Biggin Hill

jfw wrote:

I agree… but the initial question was “what does the controller expect” when he states “join downwind”

I know, but in my post, I was merely translating the French law, not stating my own opinion. Personally, I think that this phrase is a bit meagre to describe what you’re supposed to do at a controlled airfield.

But this short phrase also shows the spirit – when you are under air traffic control, it is all about what you both agree upon and nothing should be assumed. Except if it’s in a predefined procedure like a SID or STAR which you are given. For example in Luxembourg, they also draw maps with VFR routes for arrival and departure, a bit similar to the one you posted at the start of this thread. But they don’t leave gaping holes that can be filled by the imagination of each pilot.

Last Edited by Rwy20 at 14 Mar 14:03

Rwy20 wrote:

On controlled aerodromes, this is not applicable and you are supposed to follow the clearances that you received

I agree… but the initial question was “what does the controller expect” when he states “join downwind”… I have learned that “downwind” is “beginning of downwind” as other have mentioned in the threat (as you mention the confusion might come from the circuit join on uncontrolled airfields).

Your interpretation (“when you intercept the track of the downwind leg, turn onto it”) makes sense.
I would have expected a “joind mid righthand downwind” as instruction in the initial case. It would result in zero doubt on what as expected.

Last Edited by jfw at 14 Mar 13:18
jfw
Belgium: EBGB (Grimbergen, Brussels) - EBNM (Namur), Belgium

Rwy20 wrote:

What is odd indeed is that the radio messages on the picture assume you’re talking to “tower”.

That’s probably why I concluded that this is the method to be applied when flying to towered airfields.

EDDS - Stuttgart

what_next wrote:

it has something (1/3 down the page) which resembles a British “standard overhead join” and about which they claim that it is the procedure to be used when flying at controlled airfields

I read it as describing one way to join the beginning of downwind at circuit height on uncontrolled fields, and it’s the same in France. There is no regulation on how you are supposed to get from the overhead (500 ft above circuit height) to the beginning of downwind, only that you must

  • descend outside of the circuit
  • observe and not hinder traffic that is already in the circuit.

The depicted method is one of the possibilities, there are others.

What is odd indeed is that the radio messages on the picture assume you’re talking to “tower”.

Last Edited by Rwy20 at 14 Mar 12:57

Rwy20 wrote:

I found this Belgian website which states…

That’s of course not an official site and it has something (1/3 down the page) which resembles a British “standard overhead join” and about which they claim that it is the procedure to be used when flying at controlled airfields… No way do you cross or overfly the runway of a controlled airfield unless specifically instructed to do so! (Guess why I know that…)

EDDS - Stuttgart

I would suppose that Belgium is oriented towards France concerning many procedures in aviation. In France, the law (Annexe I à l’Arrêté du 17 juillet 1992 relatif aux procédures générales de circulation aérienne pour l’utilisation des aérodromes par les aéronefs – https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006080008&dateTexte=20170314) states that on uncontrolled aerodromes, you have to join at the beginning of downwind, at circuit height. This is also what was taught to me and what I do.

On controlled aerodromes, this is not applicable and you are supposed to follow the clearances that you received.

4.2. Règles d’intégration dans la circulation d’aérodrome.
4.2.1. Aérodrome contrôlé.
Lorsque l’aérodrome est contrôlé l’aéronef doit s’intégrer dans la circulation d’aérodrome conformément aux clairances.

4.2.2. Aérodrome non contrôlé.
4.2.2.1. Après avoir pris connaissance des paramètres en radiotéléphonie conformément aux dispositions du paragraphe 4.1.2 a, ou après les avoir évalués lui-même conformément aux dispositions du paragraphe 4.1.3, et avoir observé la position des autres aéronefs évoluant dans la circulation d’aérodrome, le pilote commandant de bord doit venir s’intégrer en début de vent arrière à la hauteur du circuit d’aérodrome en assurant une séparation visuelle avec les aéronefs déjà engagés dans la circulation d’aérodrome et en leur laissant la priorité de passage.

I can see where the confusion comes from (from the rules for uncontrolled aerodromes), but when in doubt I would always fly the most direct track that conforms to an ATC instruction. I have had similar clearances for example at Toulouse, but there you will be so far away from the beginning of the downwind leg and so close to the track of the downwind when you get the instruction to join that it would not even occur to you to want to basically turn away, fly in the other direction for a few minutes and then do a 180.

Also, to me “downwind” means the whole leg, from the beginning to the end, and doesn’t imply any point on this leg. That is why my interpretation of “join downwind” would be “when you intercept the track of the downwind leg, turn onto it”. It is like “join <VOR> radial 180”, you’d intercept it where you cross it and not fly to the VOR first.

On uncontrolled fields, I always specify where on downwind I am when I call, e.g. “beginning of downwind / en début de vent-arrière”, “abeam tower / travers tour”, “middle of downwind / milieu de vent-arrière”).

Edit: I found this Belgian website which states the same rules as laid out in the French Arrêté above for joining a circuit.

Last Edited by Rwy20 at 14 Mar 11:57

Peter wrote:

In the UK, generally you are told to report on final, and then you can get a landing clearance. It is extremely rare to get a landing clearance before reporting final

I’ve been getting landing clearances on base quite often at airports such as EDLP/Paderborn which are towered/have a control zone/have some airline traffic but are usually very quite. So when no one else is in the circuit and there is no incoming IFR traffic, the controllers tend to issue a landing clearance early on. I don’t see why they shouldn’t, either – they could, after all, still revoke the clearance if something unforeseen happened?

Hungriger Wolf (EDHF), Germany

I was once told by ATC for a uk airport in class G to “join upwind of the downwind leg” that one stumped me. especial considering that the weather had made a turn for the worse and was marginal VFR.

I once MOR’d Liverpool for using such a non-existent VRP (“Superstore”?) and then kept repeating it because the controller didn’t realise that it wasn’t published, and I had no idea where it was, communication broke down, which caused major mayhem.

EGKB Biggin Hill
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