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What is the best way to control the cost of maintenance work, and DIY CAMO?

I am relatively new to plane ownership – just one year so far and two maintenance experiences – a 6 month /50 hour check and just now an annual. The plane is a 20+ year old TB20 in better than average condition and on the G register.

The six month check was done at a large well known maintenance facility in the UK and I had some improvements made to the plane at the same time, there were some past-due expensive maintenance items that were spotted by the facility through a records review and some additional work found from their defect survey. They checked the price of everything with me beforehand and I approved it as we went along and the shockingly large bill was therefore mostly just shocking in size, and not by its arrival because I knew in round terms what the total would be before it arrived. I didn’t however know that the facility would in fact insist that work was legally necessary when I later learned that it was not, charge me for work not done, damage my aircraft in a few minor ways (which it has to be said they then later repaired at my plane’s hanger), leave some important work unfinished, lose two old propellor logbooks and take 3 months do to 4-5 weeks’ work….Needless to say I did not go back there for the annual.

So, for the plane’s annual I went to a very small business that employs a hugely well-respected TB20 engineer. A few defects were notified to me along the way which I agreed to without checking the price – a small bit of corrosion needed some attention, one of the cylinders needed some minor valve work, the front tyre needed replacing and a gimbal joint too and the HSI needed its two internal bulbs replaced (which I had spotted on a night flight)…and then the bill came in at three times the quoted price for the annual. (Still much less than the 50 hour check though. lol) I was / am a bit shocked.

What am I doing wrong? What do people here to make sure that the following happen:

1) That “necessary” work is either legally necessary or at least very well advised. (I’m not a certified engineer.)
2) That only a reasonable number of hours are spent as chargeable hours for work done.
3) That parts prices are reasonable.
4) That work is completed properly and done to the right standard generally.

I’d love to find my way through the plane’s maintenance visits without future concern.

Thanks in advance

Howard

Last Edited by Howard at 27 Apr 12:25
Flying a TB20 out of EGTR
Elstree (EGTR), United Kingdom

A good shop manager will be very clear about which items are “nice to get done”, “recommended by them” and “legally required”. If your shop isn’t clear to you about these circumstances (or gives plain wrong advice), change the shop.

A good shop will do mainteance work in two steps: first, they will mostly do the inspection stuff (at a fixed or agreed price) and then compile a list of discrepancies, give you a $ estimate for each to be completed and after you agreed which items to accomplish, do the work. The final bill should then never be more than 10 or 15 percent off the estimate. However, it’s seldom less than 10% higher, because the “very small” (and thus uncalculated) items quickly add up to noticable amounts of money.

Re 3) and 4), well…, there is very little one can do about 3), especially on a G-reg. because any used parts will always need paperwork. For 4) I guess one simply has make one’s own experiences and then it becomes obvious rather quickly who is doing good work and who isn’t.

However, “without any concern”…, I’m afraid that will never happen.

Last Edited by boscomantico at 27 Apr 13:00
Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

Whenever somebody with inspection authority thinks he found something about my aircraft, I start the “airworthiness concern or not” discussion. It’s going on their nerves, yes but it is important. Only when that has been established, it is clear who is the sole person making the decision: I am. There is no limit to how much can be done at an annual, I could run a 10k€+ bill every year if I wanted to.

I do virtually all maintenance myself and nobody touches my airplane without my being present. That’s not to everybody’s taste but deep knowledge about the airplane can both save you a lot of money and make ownership more enjoyable and safer.

I’m not a certified engineer

Neither is anybody you’re dealing with, most of the time. If you study the information that is available, are a member in a type club and a little bit talented in mechanics, then this quickly becomes a level playing field. What the shops know more about airplane maintenance in general, I know more in airframe specifics.

Achimha, couldn’t agree more about maintaining aircraft.,, and if you talk to many doctors they’ll advise the same approach to maintaining your body!

Nobody knows it like you do, and nobody cares like you do. Pretty soon, and with some effort, you can and should end up being the expert on your plane.

Last Edited by Silvaire at 27 Apr 13:56

One nearly useless answer to the original Q would be: go N-reg. The drawbacks include

  • you are opening a can of worms (on any registry transfer)
  • you need FAA papers to fly it outside the UK
  • doing Major alterations not backed by an STC is hard work (limits avionics refits to current-model boxes)

But basically our planes are not cars, so they can’t be dropped at the dealer with a key on the seat and expect a decent job done. There are a few people who do successfully do that (I don’t know any personally but have heard that they exist) but the rest of us just get a crap job or get ripped off or both, and the people who don’t get a crap job are generally ones who never notice (the majority won’t notice anything until it actually falls off).

I am totally finished now with “companies” (every one I used has done a crap job, sometimes if not always), with the £12000 TCAS install being the last straw, and now I rent a hangar (£30/day) for 4 days over a long weekend, and with an A&P/IA we do the whole Annual. Everything gets done, everything gets checked, nothing gets skipped, no arguments about something not being in the fixed price £2500 Annual so if you want this done it will be another £500 (notwithstanding that the Release to Service always says “in accordance with the MM”) blah blah blah, and then I can fly out confident a good job has been done. Plus I inspected everything myself, which the “companies” didn’t like me doing when I asked them to leave the inspection covers off.

The 1st flight is never straight into low level IMC but only a fool would do that anyway, after any significant work. The 50hr checks (done every 30-35hrs) are done with the same guy, usually outside the hangar where the plane lives (we aren’t not permitted to work inside) so we need a reasonably nice weekend, or sometimes I fly back to “the other hangar”.

What I do can also be done on a G-reg (the A&P/IA is also EASA66) but you need a Part M “company” (a guy who appointed his wife and sons to the various required posts) to sign it off at the end. These people do exist, though for various reasons (to do with the location of the work not being, ahem, close to the location of the company) it needs to be done on a low profile basis. One day this may change (EASA’s “organisational approval” method does nothing for safety because the buck doesn’t stop anywhere) but it won’t happen soon.

Obviously what I do is not ideal and, for a non-techy type, is a hassle. The “car dealer method” would be ideal. But we cannot have that. I have asked all over the place whether there is a good firm which might do an Annual while they are doing an avionics job (a good way to do big avionics jobs) but have never got good reports on anybody. The firm I used for the TCAS I was warned about very definitely to never use for maintenance as they reportedly tend to double the bills and then drop them when you haggle.

The benefit of getting involved is that you get to know the plane a lot better. A TB20 is not a C152 and e.g. if you find the landing gear doors going totally stiff (they are seized up on most TB20s I have seen, due to a total lack of lube) then you will notice and you can get it sorted.

If you really don’t want to get involved the only option is to get pro-active and find people who are open to a proper dialogue and work closely with them.

There are also smaller things like pre-purchasing the Annual parts kit. This is dead easy; it’s a short list. Throw in other stuff picked up on the 50hr checks and you don’t get Annuals with surprises. My Annual takes 4 days because I have all the bits ready. There is no reason for Annuals to take weeks. Well… a lot of firms take on a job and then set it aside when another customer screams at them. There is no way to guard against that except to drive up there every few days.

Last Edited by Peter at 27 Apr 15:22
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

but you need a Part M “company”

This is not true, an Part 66 licensed engineer with your aircraft on his license can perform these jobs as easily as an A&P.

The major drawback from working with a “car-boot A&P / Part 66” is that you have to make sure he has all the special tools and documents required. Sure it can be done.

JP-Avionics
EHMZ

That is new to me.

Are you saying that on a 1400kg TB20, an EASA66 guy working alone can do the whole lot including the release to service, on a G-reg?

What would be the exact process?

If that is possible, it opens up many possibilities, but when this has been investigated previously, it was not possible.

The “special tools” are of course a non-issue (you need the right tools anyway) but what “documents” are needed?

Remember this is G-reg. I do recall reading about France (F-reg) having a system, especially one for Socatas whose MM was structured in a very specific way to enable this, which had some flexibility. I had some emails with a specialist in this area, maybe 5 years ago. I sent him my MM and he confirmed it. But that was a long time ago…

Last Edited by Peter at 27 Apr 16:50
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I wouldn’t know why not?

For aircraft under EASA control (and non AOC) this can be done by an holder of Part 66 license. On of the largest most complex aircraft I have on my license for both B1 and B2 is the King Air B200. I can release this aircraft as Part 66 for non AOC, just like an A&P would could for a non commerical FAA aircraft.

JP-Avionics
EHMZ

The “special tools” are of course a non-issue (you need the right tools anyway)

Sometimes see aircraft being serviced without jacks for example, or without compression tester. I don’t understand why people would want to do maintenance like that, both from the customer as from the mechanic aircraft, but also rigging tools for example. You would need quite some tools if you want to service a group of different aircraft as “boot” mechanic.

Offcourse their are others that do have access to all those tools.

but what “documents” are needed?

Information on how the maintenance has to be performed, MM / IPC is obviouse, it might require additional manuals or maintenance instructions as well.

JP-Avionics
EHMZ

Thanks everyone…. I’m learning.

Peter : your idea of doing an EASA Annual in rented hangar – me and a certified engineer, would appeal to me, and others too I’m sure. I wonder if anyone here wants to try to set this up. I’ll speak to the chap I use at the moment about me helping him next time. I’ve certainly worked on cars before (“Howard Graff points out that if you find it impossible to remove the wear sensor from the brake pad, you can simply take the nearest tool, throw it across the room, and swear loudly” Link) . and whilst I don’t currently know much about my plane I’d happily learn when and where to throw the tools. But seriously, I bet the hanger and maintenance engineer would be a popular choice.

…and could you direct me to the parts list for a standard Annual please.

Thanks again,

Howard

Flying a TB20 out of EGTR
Elstree (EGTR), United Kingdom
66 Posts
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