Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

What is VFR on top? (merged)

You can’t have “VFR” on an IFR clearance. That would suggest cancelling IFR.

I think the American situation is just a VFR flight (i.e. no IR required) but you are flying in accordance with IFR rules. Is that right?

I think very few countries prohibit VFR flight above an overcast in their airspace. One occasionally hears of some being mentioned – Spain is one, from vague memory. One would have to search all the AIPs… Various countries have special requirements e.g. (again from vague memory) France requires a VOR receiver and maybe some training or a signoff. Europe is full of these little “things”…

In the UK, there is no prohibition on VFR flight above an overcast and never has been. What the UK had, till April 2012, was a prohibition on the holders of UK issued PPLs to do it, and as such the ban was valid worldwide. The ban was removed in April 2012 for JAR-FCL (now EASA) PPLs, but remains in place for holders of the UK national (non-JAR) PPLs. To get out of the ban you have/had to hold either an IR or the IMC Rating, and the latter would get you out of it worldwide (even though its IFR privileges were valid UK only). PPLs.

Actually the UK reg was “in sight of surface” but how much of the surface had to be visible was never specified. So you would be legal flying above an overcast while seeing a mountain in the distance. Various persons in GA made up their own versions on pilot forums etc e.g. less than 50% cloud cover but the law never said that.

I think the engine failure case putting you in IMC and therefore illegal for a PPL is irrelevant because if your engine fails your aircraft is unairworthy and thus illegal to fly – so what?

As to the practicality, yes obviously you need to be able to navigate (so radio navigation capability is obviously necessary) and to get back down (so you better got the weather forecast at the destination and it was perhaps SCT or better ). But when ICAO drew up the rules of the air, they did not fully protect people from their own stupidity (or mistakes) and that’s a good thing – especially these days, after GPS has caused the bottom to fall out of the navigation market.

In most cases when people say “VFR on top” they actually mean “VMC on top” which is how most (all if possible) IFR flight is done, because you are out of hazardous weather, icing, most turbulence, etc. So when you sweat blood to get your IR, the biggest thing it gives you is the ability to do this at FL150 (or whatever)

Last Edited by Peter at 08 Dec 16:37
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
You can’t have “VFR” on an IFR clearance. That would suggest cancelling IFR.

I think the American situation is just a VFR flight (i.e. no IR required) but you are flying in accordance with IFR rules. Is that right?

In the US, VFR on Top is an IFR clearance and one must be on an IFR flightplan. The pilot must be instrument rated. Essentially, the pilot must comply with VFR altitudes, visibility requirements, and separation from clouds in addition to IFR rules. The pilot has to request the clearance. One can be VMC which is essentially clear of clouds, but not be able to comply with VFR altitudes and cloud separation requirements. To be VFR on top, one must remain at least 1000 feet above any clouds. Altitude is normally at the pilot discretion, but must be a VFR compliant altitude for the the direction of flight, so east bound 5500, 7500, 9500, … IFR altitudes below the flight levels and in Class E airspace are in increments of 1000 feet and there isn’t a hemispheric rule for direction of flight, but in most instances, east bound flights are 5000, 7000, 9000 …, however 6000 and 8000 are permitted.

The term VFR over the top is a VFR flight term. Student pilots are prohibited from flight unless they maintain visual reference to the ground by:

Sec. 61.89 General limitations.

(a) A student pilot may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft:

(6) With a flight or surface visibility of less than 3 statute miles during daylight hours or 5 statute miles at night;
(7) When the flight cannot be made with visual reference to the surface; or
(8) In a manner contrary to any limitations placed in the pilot’s logbook by an authorized instructor.
KUZA, United States

Peter, how did you pass your FAA Commercial!!

From what I can see in the UK ANO, VFR on top in the UK would be illegal for a VFR-only pilot. "Page 265 of the UK ANO ":http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf says “the holder may not fly out of sight of the surface”.

Shame :(

With the advent of the EASA Licence the requirement to be in sight of the ground has gone away

YPJT, United Arab Emirates

Peter wrote:

In the UK, there is no prohibition on VFR flight above an overcast and never has been. What the UK had, till April 2012, was a prohibition on the holders of UK issued PPLs to do it, and as such the ban was valid worldwide. The ban was removed in April 2012 for JAR-FCL (now EASA) PPLs, but remains in place for holders of the UK national (non-JAR) PPLs. To get out of the ban you have/had to hold either an IR or the IMC Rating, and the latter would get you out of it worldwide (even though its IFR privileges were valid UK only). PPLs.

Actually the UK reg was “in sight of surface” but how much of the surface had to be visible was never specified. So you would be legal flying above an overcast while seeing a mountain in the distance.

Interesting. So does this mean the section of the UK ANO I referenced in my original post went out of date in April 2012? If so, where are the changes published? Is that what AICs are for?

EGBJ and Firs Farm, United Kingdom

So does this mean the section of the UK ANO I referenced in my original post went out of date in April 2012? If so, where are the changes published? Is that what AICs are for?

See Bookworm’s reply here – a similar issue. The ANO covers UK issued (non JAR-FCL/EASA licenses) only, in this respect.

Unfortunately, post-EASA, the business of finding out which regulation (if any) applies to any particular apsect of flight or operations is now very difficult, unless you are a dedicated reader of 500+ page documents…

Last Edited by Peter at 09 Dec 17:57
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Presently additional requirements for “VFR without the surface in sight” in Denmark are: 1) At least 150 hrs PIC, 2) aircraft approved for IFR, 3) weather forecast indicates no more than 4/8 (i.e. scattered, not broken) clouds at destination, 4) IFR fuel reserves and 5) flightplan submitted.

Talk about some gold plating!

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

You could call that gold plating, and Danish authorities do have a very strong tradition for that, but in reality the mentioned requirements are older than even JAR-OPS. In any case, when SERA comes into force in Denmark next December (i.e. 2014), we will all be equal, as I believe there will be no room for national peculiarities. Concerning VFR without the surface in sight. Although I could be wrong. For example, EASA (SERA) allows any State to decide for themselves what they would like the minimum altitude for night VFR flying to be …

Last Edited by huv at 10 Dec 15:31
huv
EKRK, Denmark

I believe there will be no room for national peculiarities

There will be.

Last Edited by boscomantico at 10 Dec 15:54
Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

Stephan is right, in Germany, I have never heard of it being illegal to climb “on top”.

The question becomes important when flying from Germany, France, Benelux, or even the northern part of Switzerland to Italy or to the Eastern Adriatic, where – suitable plane provided – over (as in “on-top-of-any-cloud-cover-there-might-be”) the alps is much more convenient than through them (below cloud cover, worming your way through the valleys :)… We all know the nice little Cirrus’ with cruising alts of FL17 and more…. with a closed cloud cover, a simple emergency will not only for sure get you into IMC, but also you won’t have much of VMC airspace available below the clouds…

Therefore, legal or not, at least know how to fly in IMC, because you might be forced to practice it sometimes.

Last Edited by EuroFlyer at 05 Aug 08:46
Safe landings !
EDLN, Germany

Funny, in the newest (paper) edition of “Flynytt” there is an article about the practical value of the new EIR rating, in particular the value for flights in Norway. The author concluded that it would be of limited value, but only if you could take off at an airport with excellent weather and land at another airport with equally excellent weather. In other words, no substitute for “real” IFR in an aircraft approved for icing conditions. The main reason for this conclusion is the rules about when and where one is supposed to switch between IFR/VFR or VFR/IFR. In my opinion it is not a substitute for VFR “on top” either.

In Norway, VFR on top is like any other VFR flight with the same requirement for weather minima as VFR beneath the clouds. The only difference is you fly above the cloud layer. The condition beneath the cloud layer must be VFR (cloud base 1000 feet AGL and 5 km sight, when planning). The condition at the destination or some area around the destination must be max 4/8 cloud layer.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top