Maoraigh wrote:
If possible, the pre-buy inspector should be the guy doing the first annual.
Definitely! In fact, if the annual is due soon, the pre-buy inspection may then count as part of the annual – I did exactly that when buying my plane: paid for a pre-buy in July, got the thumbs-up from the engineer, bought the plane and had the rest of the annual done in August.
The ideal purchase agreement involves the seller carrying out an annual and paying for any rectifications.
An annual inspection should never be used as replacement for a prebuy. It is ok that it is done by the same mechanic but two processes should be kept completely separate. I am totally against with doing sales agreements that tie the purchase to annual instead of a proper pre buy inspection just for saving a few hundred bucks.
The purpose of an annual is to make a regulatory determination of whether or not the aircraft is in airworthy condition. The purpose of a pre-buy is to determine whether the aircraft has any costly defects that could either cause the prospective buyer not to buy the airplane, or could trigger a renegotiation of the price. For example annual inspection measures brake discs thickness which really doesnt have any impact on the sale price, but in prebuy a huge amount of effort and time is spent on corrosion inspections as it can be very very expensive to repair later. An annual inspection, once started, can not be stopped until finished. Whereas a pre buy can be aborted anytime a big problem is found so that the buyer-seller can re-negotiate the price or just cancel the deal.
A pre-buy must be controlled and paid by the buyer whereas an annual inspection is controlled by the aircraft owner. So if you let the seller to do annual inspection and count that towarsd a prebuy, then you are at the mercy of sellers decision making in the annual inspection finds and you as buyer have absolutely no right to interfere with this process. Where as when the buyer conducts pre-buy, there are no repairs made what so ever and seller is not allowed to interfere.
Lastly, as an aircraft owner, I’d never allow a potential buyer to take my aircraft for annual inspection to another AP some 100 miles away. For a prebuy yes I would.
The ideal purchase agreement involves the seller carrying out an annual and paying for any rectifications.
The problem is that any service action done shortly before a sale must be regarded as deeply suspect unless done by a well known reputable firm (of whom there are extremely few in GA, and even the best names screw up regularly, though they tend to fix it fast for clients with whom they have a long term relationship).
A better way is for the Annual to be done by a firm or A&P nominated by the prospective buyer, with the seller paying for it. If the seller refuses this, that itself raises suspicion. It’s like the seller having changed the oil just before a sale; it is not an uncommon tactic which prevents a prospective buyer inspecting the filter and oil analysis 
A pre-buy must be controlled and paid by the buyer
Very much so.
There are too many badly done prebuys. I have heard of a worrying number of these recently and the surprise cost to the new owner has been considerable. A prebuy should take 2 days. 1 day to check the documentation and 1 day for looking at the plane generally. Then you need someone to check the avionics, which probably won’t be the engineer. And don’t assume somebody is good for prebuys because they post, or used to post, on EuroGA or any other forum… always ask other clients of that person for recommendations.
“A prebuy should take 2 days. 1 day to check the documentation and 1 day for looking at the plane generally. Then you need someone to check the avionics, which probably won’t be the engineer. And don’t assume somebody is good”
Much less for a simple, low price aircraft. Avionics were .25 radio. vor, non-S tx. Replaced with Trigg 8.33 and Mode S. Now no vor. Only then did I realise I’d flown from the Humber to Inverness, squawking Charlie, with no blind encoder. Only when very close could I contact ATC on my 8.33 handheld.
The guy who found the aircraft was in touch with a local engineer, quoting for two days, at a professional hourly rate. We took our own retired guy.
At £15,500 it was worth taking some risk.
The problems since are not the aircraft.
Genraly I don’t like mid time engines or aircraft as you don’t know what you are buying and would rather get hold of an old dog with an almost run out engine and pay the price to put is right.
A number of years back I was on the verge of buying a C152 with a run out engine, the plan was to take it home and send the engine to a reputable engine shop, before the deal was done the owner told me that he had just got the engine overhauled and adjusted the price. Unfortunately he had sent the engine to the worst budget engineshop in the UK , the seller was more than a little disappointed when I pulled out of the deal.
At the moment there are some good deals to be done on aircraft that are getting towards the end of their safe lives and require major inspection to return to flight with a potential of another 25-30 years of safe flying.
Choose your type and maintenance shop wisely and a decrepit aircraft that has manufacture support and you could have for £95-100K and aircraft that is as good as a factory new aircraft that will show less depreciation.
A_and_C wrote:
Choose your type and maintenance shop wisely and a decrepit aircraft that has manufacture support and you could have for £95-100K and aircraft that is as good as a factory new aircraft that will show less depreciation.
I’d love to hear some examples! Very interested!
Snoopy
A few shops in France are doing this with the DR400.
From my hard-earned experience:
1. Make sure you have a good relationship with your maintenance shop. You have to strike a balance between honesty, cost effectiveness, quality and speed (as in work speed) here. This is in spot nr 1 for a reason. It’s what will separate a cost effective or even tolerable ownership from an unpleasant one.
2. Make sure your maintenance facility has experience in your type. Otherwise you’re paying for them to learn on the job and re-doing things. It’s worth traveling a little further to find this expertise as it will save you money in the long run.
3. Make sure you’re good with the fact that you will get 0% get back on any engine work and a maximum of 50% back on any engine overhaul. If you can’t live with this, then pay up front for a low time engine and never touch it until you sell it.
4. Make sure you’re good with the fact that you’ll get a maximum of 50% back on any panel upgrades (and every owner will eventually do this to some extent).
5. Understand that an engine overhaul will end up costing almost twice as much as the quoted one once it’s all installed. It’s just how it is.
Other than that, don’t worry – just get the plane! 
So a 50k conti/lyco 6 banger is gonna be 100k? For new engines.
Or is factory overhaul less cost than that?
