172 Driver are you in the States?
It is not very hard to detect where KSMO is, or is it? Especially if one is (at least part time) based at KHTO …
C210_Flyer wrote:
172 Driver are you in the States?
Yes. Los Angeles.
and as for “ROW” and “booking out”:
mh wrote:
Even people who could afford a brand new aircraft would rather buy an old one and refurbish it to their liking. They then end up with a 160k€ Aero Commander or a 70k€ C172, but those aircraft are in fact as good as new and with all bells and whistles they like.
I agree.
Ever since I am back flying and have my website up about it, plus being a tad vocal in some other fora about airplane ownership, I get requests by the dozens about exactly that. People start looking at ads at planecheck or aircraft24 and see that owning airplanes which 20 years ago cost the equivalent of a pretty substantial house are now available for less than the average mid size car. VERY few of them even consider new planes or even a used Cirrus, they are in the market for a 50-100k airplane. And what you can get for that money or it’s equivalent at the time has, in recent years, increased MASSIVELY to before.
I also disagree with the notion that young people are turned off by old airplanes if the said airplanes are well kept and equipped. Ever since I own my now 50 year old airplane I have gotten more requests of people who want to fly it than we can actually handle in a non commercial operation. The reason for that is that the price is right for a well above average equipped airframe which is IFR certified to a high standard including LPV approaches and that is is well kept. I can see the same thing with a friend of mine who runs a flight school using Jodel airplanes for basic training. Those things are old, but they are in excellent condition and they are very well equipped including Aspen PFD in one of them. When the students go shopping for a PPL and find they can fly with such an airplane for 20-30% less than in a school which runs normally equipped Cessnas, Aquillas or even Katanas, they are quickly convinced.
In fact i would say that in many cases flying even with certified airplanes can be much more affordable today than it ever was. BUT, and that is where many go wrong, it depends MASSIVELY on the airframe, on the maintenance organisation and the airfield you are based at.
One other bit i have tried to convince those who come to me with variing success is to NOT spend their whole purchase budget on the maximum of what they can get with it unless it is REALLY 100% what they want but to buy for maybe 50% and use the rest to a) fly and b) upgrade. Those who did so got themselfs some quite increadible deals and were able to do what they really want instead of sitting in a compromise and silently looking around for something else.
Those with a budget of 50k-100k can get an almost unlimited number of very decent Cessnas, Mooneys, Pipers and other airplanes for maybe 25-50k and then make it their own for the other half of their money. One person I took through this now owns an Arrow III which came with an Aspen PFD as well as full IFR certification for less than 30k which he is now upgrading to what he wants. The “competing” airframe was an Arrow IV which had the AP he now is installing and a GNS430, but to get it where his III is now going he would have had to spend still more than half of what he is spending now to get what he wants, so even though there is more to be done in the III the all up price is a lot less than if he had updated the IV.
those who can afford airframes in the 200k to 300k price range of course will go for Cirrus or similar airframes simply because they are newer, have the shute and are better equipped. But that does not mean that people with 50k budgets need to stay renters or non flyers, not at all. Nowadays it is pretty easily possible to get a very well equipped IFR tourer in the 100k € range and an hour price of 200-250€ wet in operation if you are willing to go bang for buck rather than flashy and shiny new which often exceed the capabilities of the newer airframes. I recently talked to a guy looking for an airplane to fly into areas of limited avgas supply about 1500 NM away quite regularly. He was looking for an SR22 but now has his eyes firmly set on a G1000 equipped Mooney Ovation: It has almost 3 times the fuel range of the SR22, is faster and will cost him half of what a comparable Cirrus would cost. His mission profile either reqires an airplane with that kind of Avgas economy and range or he would have to go Diesel or Turboprop as the SR22 simply won’t do rangewise what he needs.
The other bit which was mentioned is the attitude at airfields. To this i FULLY agree. Not only at airfields I hasten to add, but similarly in quite a few forums and other “expert” platforms, where most people don’t konw the first thing about ownership and just repeat the same garbage they have been told by their club FI’s who want them to fly their old trainers for the next 20 years. The other problem is that most affordable airfields are private and will be ruled by some local club kings who will impose massive restrictions to the use of non-club airplanes. That is one reason many people will stay put at relatively expensive regional or international airports just to avoid that kind of hassle.
Like many here say it is quite true, GA suffers a death of a 1000 cuts, but very often things get exagarated and blown out of proportion by ill informed people, while really important issues are either not communicated at all or get lost in the background clutter. Yes, GA has become more difficult but by far not impossible to do. It just needs a bit more flexibility and less tunnel vision on the behalf of some of those who are at the key positions when it comes to introduce newbies to the joys of aviation.
The problem with this discussion is that the thread was about the “decline of GA” and not about the usability of classic airplanes from the 50s, 60s and 70s.
We could all be driving cars from the 60s too, but very few people would disagree that there must have been a decline at some point if the streets were full of 50 year old cars in 2015.
We should not discuss this from our personal perspective as enthusiasts for classic airplanes.
He was looking for an SR22 but now has his eyes firmly set on a G1000 equipped Mooney Ovation: It has almost 3 times the fuel range of the SR22, is faster and will cost him half of what a comparable Cirrus would cost.
3000 NM range and half the cost of an SR22, … can i have one too, please?
See Planecheck:
Mooney Ovation, 2007, 650 h, € 295.000
Cirrus SR22 turbo, 2007, 900 h, € 230.000
Peter wrote:
See here It depends on the AFMS wording. And You need an AFMS for RNAV1 also, etc.
I don’t get you. Section II, C 3 and 4, of your AFMS says exactly the same thing that I am saying.
Jan_Olieslagers wrote:
“booking out” is just another UK oddity, irrelevant to RoW
If “booking out” just means that you should inform ATC in advance (and not on the radio) of your intended departure, then that is not unusual at busy airports outside the UK.
Jan_Olieslagers wrote:
Jan_Olieslagers 16-Nov-15 21:51 #52
172 Driver are you in the States?
It is not very hard to detect where KSMO is, or is it? Especially if one is (at least part time) based at KHTO …
No it is not difficult to figure out that he states that he is based in Santa Monica However that was not the question I asked him, now was it?
