172driver wrote:
Another factor may well be traffic. Yes, really, I mean the one on the roads. How long did it take to get to an airfield in the 70s/80s and how long does this trip take today? Try to get from central London to, say, Denham during the day – it’s a nightmare. If you don’t live relatively close to an airfield, going for a bimble takes up the better part of your day.Increasing red tape, idiotic airfield opening times and schenanigans like the above cited ‘booking out’ procedure obviously don’t help either.
The ‘utility factor’ I think was never really an issue in Europe. In the US, sure and it still is. In Europe there was always only a very, very tiny minority who used light GA for any meaningful transport, biz or pleasure
The reason I ask where you are located is because of the comments you made up above. Seems you have intimate knowledge of some of the shortcomings of GA in Europe You dont get that information from reading the flying mags.
As some other pilots that I know do you spend time flying here in Europe part of the year or have you relocated to the US permanently? Then again you might be a 747 pilot that travels between the West Coast of the US and London. Just curious.
I suppose not many Americans would be on Euro GA site unless they have had some aviation activity here in Europe.
Flyer59 wrote:
The problem with this discussion is that the thread was about the “decline of GA” and not about the usability of classic airplanes from the 50s, 60s and 70s.
So what does “Decline of GA” mean in your language?
For me, it means, we get less and less people who fly. We get less and less people who own airplanes and lots of folks who do their licenses throw the thowel shortly after. It’s about people, not the actual airplanes.
Flyer59 wrote:
We should not discuss this from our personal perspective as enthusiasts for classic airplanes.
See, that is one of the problems here: People who make the choice to fly older airframes are denounced as some sort deluded enthusiasts for garbage cans. So let me put it to you quite clearly: I regard that as part of the arrogance displayed by some of the more wealthy GA members towards people who will not or can not afford to buy quarter million Euro airframes, let alone half or even full million new airplanes, at least at the time when they join in GA one of the main reasons why people have such problems getting started with airplane ownership. Because they are being shunned by the snobbish behaviour of those who drive the “Lexus” class airplanes and who make them believe that the rest are just old pieces of junk for the garbage heap.
So in your opinion people who can’t afford to spend 250-600k on an airplane but opt to go for what they CAN afford, namely a 50-100k airframe, which is still a LOT of money, they are what exactly? Poor cousins? Proletarians who don’t really belong? Or what?
In other words, would you rather have a GA ownership community which consists of owners of a certain wealth only instead of having a much larger population which includes also lower incomes?
People who can afford >250k € airframes are few and far between.
People who WILL do that even more so.
People who can and will afford a 50k Warrior or a 50-100k vintage IFR tourer are of a much larger number. But many of them get dissuaded by the snobbery and bad mouthing of such airframes by people who appear to think that GA should be a gentleman’s club for the wealthy.
That, Alexis, is what I am up against MOST and FOREMOST when I talk to people about airplane ownership.
The rumours that airplanes are only for the jet set, for the filthy rich, for millionaires and above.
The rumours that affordable airframes are unsafe, unattractive and dirty waste of space.
The rumours that a normal worker can not own and fly their own airplanes.
ALL of these rumours are wrong. And they are seeded by either folks who never got the balls to follow their dream and buy an airplane, who whimped out before their wifes, before their workmates and others who will turn green with envy or simply declare you mad because you DARE to buy a “millionaire’s toy”. And of course those who seem to regard them inferior next to their half million plastic toys.
That is one of the things which differ here in Europe from America for a start, where owning a PA28 has little or no exotic value, whereas here anyone who “admits” to owning an airplane will bring up delusions of grandeur by the envy brigade who never sat in such a plane and don’t know what it is in the first place.
In comparison, it would mean that only people should drive cars who can afford 100k Lexus or Mercedes vehicles, those who will and can afford a 5k second hand Citroen should kindly stay away because why exactly? We do not live in a feudal system where only Lords and Barons own houses or cars. Or airplanes.
And NO.
You don’t need a 250k SR22 in order to fly IFR in Europe.
I would say that 100k are more than enough to buy you a capable and fairly well equipped safe and reliable airframe.
And you certainly don’t need even a 100k airframe to fly VFR. Actually, such airframes start at 10-15k Euros these days. And I am not talking of wrecks, but of well kept, perfectly flyable certified airplanes such as PA28-140 / 180, Jodels, Cessnas and the like. Vintage Mooneys, Arrows, older Bonanzas e.t.c. can be had from 30k up, in flying condition with mid time engines and adequate avionic for VFR.
Flyer59 wrote:
3000 NM range and half the cost of an SR22, … can i have one too, please?
The airplane in question was under negotiation for 100k last thing I heard, it was advertized for I believe 150k originally. It’s one of the first Ovations with the G1000 non WAAS I think, S-Tec 55x, LR tanks with 120 USG total. It is N-reg but can (was and will be again) EASA registered. It’s been a while since I heard from the guy so I’d have to ask what happened. I realize that the price is ridiculously low for an airframe like that and there won’t be that many for this price range, but if you look at the conventional Ovations, you see them starting at asking prices of around 150k asking, which translates in negotiable down to 100k. Personally I would not touch a non-WAAS G1000 system, so maybe that is why. I know of one original Ovations with a very attractive paint job, also LR tanks, adequate IFR equipment and plenty of hours with conventional cockpit which is currently under pre-buy for well under 100k. The Ovation 2 with 120USG has a range of around 2400 NM. So ok, 2.4 x the Cirrus range :)
It’s true however that prices of Ovations and Acclaims as well as Eagles and Bravos have picked up a bit recently. In 2010 I recall an Ovation 1 changing hands for around 70k, recently I have seen a really nice Eagle for around 60k as well. Then again I can remember an original Avidyne SR22 changing hands for 150k€ as well in 2013 i believe it was and a lovely 201 for 40k…
All I want to point out is that GA is not a perogative of the wealthy and should not be, otherwise the decline is simply unavoidable. But I do regard the behaviour and delusions of grandeur of some folks with shiny new toys one of the most annoying and counterproductive streaks I see in the current (and past) GA environment.
Mooney_Driver, you get my vote for best post of the month, or possibly the year to date!
@ Mooney_Driver
At least i know who was the author of the bible now :-)
I have written nothing in the meaning (or tone) you are trying to accuse me of here. But i agree with you in one point: envy is no good.
I wrote, in short, that we cannot discuss the state of GA as an industry by claiming that 50 y.o. airplanes fly “just as fine as new ones or have the same usability”.
Otherwise we can also conclude that the tape recorder industry is doing well, because you can use a tape recorder from 1969 for listening to music.
PS: Hey Lord Jason, how much was that new Mustang? You know we will have to talk about that :-)
Silvaire wrote:
Mooney_Driver, you get my vote for best post of the month, or possibly the year to date!
Thank you sir!
Flyer59 wrote:
At least i know who was the author of the bible now :-)
Really? You must tell me one day.
From what I hear from the US, converting a non-WAAS to WAAS G1000 on the Mooney Ovation and Acclaim is somewhere around 40k USD.
Well said, @Mooney_Driver!
@ Mooney_Driver
I have the feeling you are mixing up many different things. You should take a deep breath, and read what i wrote, again. Maybe with less prejudice. It was actually me who answered that GA is “too expensive today and that many people have other problems than to pick up flying”. And I stand by my opinion that airplanes became almost unaffordable for the “normal employee”, to use a clichée.
Now how from all this and from my standpoint that we cannot discuss “the state of GA” by looking at it from our (i wrote “our”!) position as pilots of classic airplanes, that will stay your secret, I guess. Why did i write “our”? Because after 20 years of flying my families old Warrior and as an Aviation Journalist I feel I still belong to the same flying scene – even though I can afford a more expensive airplane now.
The rest of your post: Sorry, I (obviously) love to write, but I feel no urge to deal with all your fantasies about myself or for trying to convince you that I’m not a “snob”. I also might have forgotten to get your approval to spend my money the way i want to, but i plan to proceed in that direction.
Guys, but isn’t the truth that it has always been that way, and always will be, and there is nothing inerently wrong with it? I mean, “back in the day” there were those who flew the shiny new “doctor killer” Bonanzas, and those who flew ex-milirary Cubs. There are those who drive Fiats and those who drive Porsches. I mean, our hobby is ridiculously expensive, even more so in my neck of the woods, where the average take home monthly salary is under 1k EUR, yet we all still try to make the best of it, and in the end that is what matters.
Without Mooney_Driver’s advocacy for older planes I would surely be much more uneasy when looking at 40 year old planes to buy (my brother thinks I’m nuts, and I see his point). I’d have much more doubt about the affordability (to me) of plane ownership. Without flyer59’s talk of how happy he is with his Cirus I probably wouldn’t be thinking “maybe someday I’ll be fortunate enough to look for one just like that”. Both are in their own way insightful and each serves a purpose.
And speaking of envy – I envy both of you, I envy Peter’s 1200nm IFR runs. So what? I see it as a positive driving force that is pushing me to do something to maybe be finally able to get to one of the fly-ins. So, as always, more than one way to skin a cat :-)
Anyway, I’d like to thank all of you here for this “community” and especially for the diversity in it. You make pursuing the flying dream possible. Hat off.
The reason there is a decline is there is no profit in it.
No flying schools make any money (and the owners that do would earn more money working part time for Ryanair)
Integrated schools have to fight with the UK regulations so move their training abroad whereits cheaper. A big blow for uk GA.
Airfields struggle to make ends meet and GA doesn’t help pay the bills. Hence they kick it out at the first sniff of anything that might offer a profit.
They now also have to fight with all this security requirements. The staffing costs of which mean that a footfall of anything less than a million passengers a year and they are running at a loss.
One area of GA where there is a profit is in microlights. Which is why the flying school local to me has got rid of there Cessna 152 and replaced it with an ikrus C42. The hourly rate dropped from 100 quid an hour to 70 pounds an hour. It can do 98% of what the C152 can do and make three times the profit per hour.
It’s actually commercially viable to buy one brand new. Whereas for any other new SEP that is not the case. Hence the number of microlight schools is increasing whereas the number of SEP schools is decreasing.
Of course if the regulations change things could improve. The regulations associated with owning and running an MEP particularly in the flying school environment have destroyed it.
Maybe SET commercial operations will help the larger GA airports.
But if there is no profit to be made in the industry it will continue to decline.
