Peter wrote:
Yes; the customer pays more than he collects, otherwise the insurer loses money.
No, the average customer.
And I agree that on average self insurance saves you money but the reason most people take it is that they couldn’t absorb the loss if their losses were significantly more than the average.
I think the main issue is that those engine programs often come from the engine manufacturer. Thus whatever service bulletin, defective parts or other stuff they come up with they know they basically have to pay for those mistakes themselves.
Imagine the usual piston engines offered on engine programms. The quality they produce they would be out of business in no time. As a manufacturer selling inferior parts and then selling soon expensive replacement parts of bad quality no longer works if you have to pay for that yourself.
Sebastian_G wrote:
I think the main issue is that those engine programs often come from the engine manufacturer. Thus whatever service bulletin, defective parts or other stuff they come up with they know they basically have to pay for those mistakes themselves.
Yes, this was always the case on heavy ones, if RyanAir buys a B737 from Boeing which fitted with a CFM56, engine finance & maintenance program will be spread over its life cycle and will be contracted with manufacturers (GE & Snecma)
Most operators contracted these not just for “peace of mind” while the engine is running but also for “peace of mind” when it comes to a quick sell of the aircraft at good value or when trying to use their aircrafts as collateral for loans, this was the case for CAT but I guess the same applies to Bizjets?
JasonC wrote:
It is 150 hours per year so even if you don’t fly that much you have to pay for it.
So what happens if you fly 155 hours and have a bird strike?
150hrs minimum in billing. You can still just fly 1hr/year and have a birdstrike and they’ll fix it as long as you’ve paid for the 150hrs. If you fly 155hrs in a year, you pay for 155hrs.
Snoopy wrote:
So what happens if you fly 155 hours and have a bird strike?
Ok well your normal insurance would cover bird strike not the programs but as Adam says you can do as many hours as you like but the minimum you can be billed for each year is 150.
Good morning Everyone,
This thread contains TBM in its title so course, I read it from A to Z.
I am not sure if there is an real obsession with TBM and PC12 vs the Mustang. PC12 is a very capable SUV when its size is needed and the TBM more of GT car. When you need a PC12, the Mustang is not an option so I am not sure there is a point of comparing both at all.
I do however have some feedback from TBM owners that can perhaps contribute to understanding their choice.
The Mustang is a light jet with cons of a jet vs a turboprop but limited pros. In other words, you loose smaller fields but you don’t fly faster.
In addition, payload is less so range is directly impacted. For European use, climbing up to FL410 is not always an option so fuel burn and range are further cons on these flights.
For some owners, these are requisites. We have TBM based on airfields with 750M of runway which is too short for a Mustang or traveling from the UK to Hungary on a weekly basis. The leg back from Budapest is not achievable on most days with the Mustang. It is with the TBM.
There is no equivalent to be able to load (900 lbs with fuel fuel) , fly far (1,250 NM at max cruise and 1,730 at economy), fast (330 KTS burning 60 USG an hour) and land on small field (700 m runway). You may not need all these qualities on every flight but it gives you a lot of margins and flexibility to adjust to different mission profiles.
Cabin is the same: 6 seats, club seating or all facing forward, 4 seats + lavatory, 2 seats + full cargo so you can again adapt with great versatility.
Add to this a luxurious cabin, latest avionics suite with growing automation, warranty and full maintenance paid for 5 years and perhaps you will understand the success of the TBM, its unique proposition and why some who seem obsessed at first are actually making a reasonable choice.
Good TBMs can be bought from $1M for an old TBM 700A model to $4.25M for a new TBM 930. From 2008, a TBM 850 comes with a G1000 and this is about $2M so the comparison with a Mustang is probably with this model. You will therefore pay a bit more for a TBM compared to a Mustang at $1.5M but running costs will be lower, maintenance easier and we have Mustangs owners wanting to get a TBM. They are even ready to bite the bullet of heavy depreciation on their Mustang to go for the convenience of the TBM because they also know resale value of the TBM will provide a cheaper total cost of ownership with less hassle such as Part Ncc etc.
We just sold 2 TBM 930 to owners who were considering a Honda Jet as the only other alternative to the TBM, not a Mustang, not an M2, not a PC12, just the Honda but ended up choosing the TBM.
The issue once you have a TBM is where else to go to get a real Jet upgrade. A Phenom 300 or a Cj3+ come come to mind for their added speed and range but they are a lot of airplane to fly a single private pilot and we will not talk about money here….Some go to mid to full size Jets with crews but keep their TBMs to be their own pilot for European flights.
Have a nice week.
David
About C510 vs TBM
You can have the C510 operated by a real air carrier, with an AOC, and hence reduce your costs, and in addition make sure your aircraft is properly maintained.
Are there any 700m IFR runways? What’s the point in being able to fly to a VFR only airport? If you fly for business you can’t afford to take the risk to have to cancel your journey because of the weather.
It’s far more comfortable to fly above the weather. FL310 (max FL for the TBM) is certainly not always high enough.
Having two jet-engines at night over the Irish sea when it’s snowing makes me feel far more comfortable than having a single turbo prop.
The Pro advantage Cessna programs (parts and labour repair & maintenance at a fix cost per hour flown) don’t have, AFAIK, an equivalent with Daher.
The speed is not an issue for small jets, the real issue is how much time to get airborne once you are at the airport. If you fly on your own, you will lose 1/2 hour at least. If you have your plane operated by an air carrier, a pilot will be available for you to prepare everything, so that you just have to sit and start.
The real thing is the range. 1000NM is the practical max range with the C510. If you leave in a central place, such as Paris, it is usually enough.
Jason why did you sell yours?
Piotr_Szut wrote:
Jason why did you sell yours?
Let me guess 
to buy even more capable aircraft.
Emir wrote:
Let me guess to buy even more capable aircraft.
Yep.
BTW, the reason that I didn’t reply to David’s post was that it really was marketing rubbish. The TBM is a great plane but to claim that it is superior to a Mustang in almost all respects is absurd.
