One 400 for sale here
https://www.aircraft-sales24.com/extra-400/d-etth
Wow, it looks like this thread heated up! 2 more cents from an actual Extra 400 owner / pilot:
- The E400 is fully certified under EASA rules, including IFR and FIKI when the corresponding SB is applied.
- It is also FAA certified – I do not know how much of this is carryover through the EASA FAA agreement. My understanding is that the small changes that were made for FIKI certification were FAA-driven, but I have no facts to support this. The only thing I find suspicious in the certification is that the aircraft had no parts catalog.
The proof that this certification process was serious is the Extra 500, which is an offshoot of the 400.
It never got FAA IFR and, while it did get IFR in EASA it is not permitted to fly into known icing (for good reason).
As to the E400 airframe, we must do it justice: it is not just fine, it is truly amazing and very well built.
Earlier planes had unreliable and sometimes very nasty avionics (which they shared with … the PC-12), but most remaining samples got rid of them and now sport Garmin combos.
The subsiding fundamental issue is clearly the engine integration. Unreliable engine, bad integration.
Extra made a fatal mistake by installing an unproven engine. And as Peter said, the market sanctioned this and we are now blessed with the opportunity of buying an awesome airframe and look for ways to make the engine work. That’s why I do IRAN and not full overhauls.
Honestly, for less than the price of a good used DA40, you can buy a pressurized, 6 seater all carbon fiber cruiser with retractable gear, FIKI, etc… If your flights are not mission critical, you get a huge toy that is truly a joy to fly.
I loved and still love flying this aircraft. And my honest PIREPs and rants should not overshadow this simple fact: I would do it again.
In fact I. just did, by buying a second E400.
@Eagle20: you are correct, Dachsel have some new cylinders, but these have the plain barrel no coating.
The ones from RAM used to have it and I am pretty sure I bought the last set.
As to the crash of OK-EKO in the Czech Republic, I know the story quite well as the pilot is also a friend.
I cannot comment publicly, but the short version is that things are not as simple.
In a nutshell here is how I think we get the E400 to fly safely and perform very well:
0) Be your own maintenance manager. If you can’t do this, the E400 is not for you.
1) Inconel exhaust. This can be made under FAA Owner Produced regulations and signed off.
2) Install an engine monitor with logging capabilities. Learn the tech and and monitor trends. Set CHT redline at 275 F, not 300.
3) Install a coolant pressure probe and alerting system. Add coolant pressure test to preflight routine, Any coolant anomaly is no fly.
4) Reposition pressurization hardware and ducting to reduce maintenance related damage. Use top quality custom SCEETs with molded silicon end parts.
5) Suppress inline RFI filters in engine compartment as part of the Garmin avionics upgrade.
6) Install a more compliant rubber hose connector on the turbo to intercooler duct and watch/double check each reassembly of cowling like a hawk.
7) 25 hour /3 month hour inspections (cowling down, check for leaks, gear operation, check for leaks)
8) Carefully inspect for chafing damage in engine compartment at every occasion. In particular watch the exhaust heat shields.
To me, learning all of the above was mostly an exciting personal challenge.
In 700 hours I have had many issues but only 3 inflight emergencies:
- One landing gear issue due to a failed breaker.
- One engine shutdown due to disconnected turbo to intercooler. I landed with reduced power after restarting the engine with less rich mixture.
- One engine shutdown due to ice somewhere on the inlet side. I made poor diagnosis and did not open alternate air, landed safely. So this is on me.
I am quite confident that none of these incidents would happen again with my modified aircraft.
172driver wrote:
One has to wonder how an airplane that so obviously has massive design deficiencies got certified in the first place.
I do not have the paperwork but I would question if it was even fully certified. Often such aircraft get sold but in the small print things like FIKI, on board radar etc. are missing and the manufacturer then promises to deliver those at a later date. The best example was Eclipse aerospace. But even the Piper M600 was initially delivered without FIKI. If you have a solid manufacturer with a reputation to loose they will usually get this resolved. If the manufacturer vanishes you are left with a half certified plane…
In general, certification is not related to reliability.
Past threads on this one but for example to certify an engine you don’t need to run it for 2000hrs or whatever. IIRC, 150hrs is enough, and then you dismantle it and measure everything.
The final arbiter on what is good (or not) is the marketplace.
That in turn is why there is so much resistance to anything new: because there is a high probability that it will be crap.
Having read this thread with some interest, I have to concur with @Sebastian_G. One has to wonder how an airplane that so obviously has massive design deficiencies got certified in the first place.
BravoDelta82 wrote:
to just have an interesting long term restoration project near my other airplane.
I would not touch the EA400 even if it was for free. Tinkering on things and figuring out things can be great fun but how would you do that on a certified plane? A local EA400 owner once had a 1 hour presentation on his ownership experience at our local pilot meet up. It was offline only so not available anywhere but it was so obvious the only sensible thing was to get rid of this plane asap. The overall concept was not bad but the entire thing was never engineering to the end. On a car, boat or experimental aircraft you might be able to figure things out step by step yourself but on a certified plane? It would probably take a few millions in engineering, new flight testing etc. to get this plane to a state it should have had right from the beginning.
There still are NEW cylinders for the continental TSIOL-550’s, the main problem is, they’re insanely expensive; Dachsel (Germany) bought up the stock from continental years ago, then tried to auction them all, which completely failed, so they kept them and do still sell them at monstrous prices.
I wouldn’t trust overhauled cylinders for these engines though. The one that crashed in the Czech Republic a few years ago had cylinders overhauled in the US, one failed and the cooling liquid got ejected onto the windshield, fun situation for sure, engine failure while you almost can’t see anything. The pilot did in fact manage to land the plane in a field, but it flipped over on the ground, luckily he survived.
Would like to hear about the state on N121AG…is it still flying?
> Yes. The problem was the pilot. Major challenges at work…
Reason I’m asking is that one project EA400 for sale on controller.com (N14EX), that had a gear-up landing 6 years ago and is for sale in parts with a shockloaded engine and trashed prop. Looks like someone else gave up on the repair/restoration? Obviously for a reason. Just have to find out that exact reason.
> This plane was belly landed and the owner wanted to have it converted to a turboprop. The turboprop genius died and the owner sold this plane for parts to a good friend of mine. We (the E400 owners group) always buy whatever parts / donors we find when we find them and the price is not stupid.
I’m fully aware of the maintenance heavy engine and systems etc. and the money pit (who doesn’t like burn some AMUs)
> Me too :-) 
and I would just touch it, if the price was right (scrap value) to just have an interesting long term restoration project near my other airplane.
> Some of us did that and projects are ongoing (YouTube). There are a couple of Walter TP conversions being done
So out of your experience and seeing the photos on controller, would you (or any other experienced EA400 owner) say it’s feasible to put that stuff in a container and get it to Europe?
> Yes. remove the wing and I think EXTRA even have a rig for transport. You can ask them. EX is not for sale anymore but there may be more.
As the engine might be toast, are there any options to source one from RAM or where do you get cylinders etc. at the moment?
> No, sadly, RAM sold me their last 6 new cylinders (new and ceramic coated 
precisely because it is no longer possible to build engines due to lack of some specific parts. The liquid cooled TSIOL 550C engine with its enormous turbo is fantastic, performance is superior to anything air cooled, buuuut only when it works perfectly. Unfortunately it is challenging keep it at its peak. Also, the cooling system can cause catastrophic failures because of stupid and easily fixed engineering decisions: it is a pressurized system and whenever it loses pressurization collant starts boiling and your engine is minutes form failing. And yet, nobody thought of monitoring coolant pressure. Go figure.
Other options would be to get one of the serviceable ones who are officially airworthy (in reality they are also most likely only restoration projects)
> Some are really airworthy and flyable.
but for a higher price. What would be your price limit for getting one with all the known issues?
> The market is minuscule so it is very hard to say. Actual transactions for flyable planes are between 250 and 400 K – a bargain compared to… anything, but obviously I would add a serious reserve for unplanned maintenance.
thank you for all the interesting read about the Extra400 and your ongoing efforts to make it a more reliable aircraft.
Would like to hear about the state on N121AG…is it still flying?
Reason I’m asking is that one project EA400 for sale on controller.com (N14EX), that had a gear-up landing 6 years ago and is for sale in parts with a shockloaded engine and trashed prop. Looks like someone else gave up on the repair/restoration? Obviously for a reason. Just have to find out that exact reason.
I’m fully aware of the maintenance heavy engine and systems etc. and the money pit (who doesn’t like burn some AMUs) and I would just touch it, if the price was right (scrap value) to just have an interesting long term restoration project near my other airplane. So out of your experience and seeing the photos on controller, would you (or any other experienced EA400 owner) say it’s feasible to put that stuff in a container and get it to Europe?
As the engine might be toast, are there any options to source one from RAM or where do you get cylinders etc. at the moment?
Other options would be to get one of the serviceable ones who are officially airworthy (in reality they are also most likely only restoration projects) but for a higher price. What would be your price limit for getting one with all the known issues?
Despite I like the packaging, I have a question about that:
- an electric compressor means that we no longer need to carry emergency O2.
All pressurized planes have emergency O2, why removing it? I understand that total electric failure is not prone to happen soon, but in case of it, you would be happy to get you mask on and keep some electrons for usefull purpose : descend through a thick layer with a bit of anti-ice.
