Aviathor wrote:
I know that in Norway it is not uncommon to observe French and German-registered airplanes heading to or returning from the North Cape in the summer months.I cannot recall having seen any G-reg…Please chime in with additional examples!
He he. There should be some statistics available, but no one seems to be counting. LT started issue the VFR-guide because of all the visiting aircraft. Note the name VFR-guide, it’s not without reason. My impression is that Germans are dominating, then French, Swiss, Netherland etc. They come in all kinds of aircraft, from the true “garden chair variety” microlights to big TPs and helicopters, but most fly VFR with something in between. There is also a few G-regs from time to time, but they are mostly the “business variety”, or that’s what it looks like. That is my impression.
Funny thing. In the official online map page from the mapping authority, one can zoom in on Namsos airport, ENNM. The moment the pictures was taken, there was a gang of TMGs and other smaller aircraft visiting. Several Fourniers by the looks of it. Impossible to see where they are from, but I would say 99% chance from Germany, France, Switzerland or a mix.
I’ve done a fair share of long trips in the DA40 I rent. This year, 9 days in July, and I was going to do 9 days now. The July one required a bit more advance notice, but the one now had been decided on the day.
Sure, I’d prefer to own a plane but for now this works relatively well. Probably getting a nice property in somewhere sunny before that anyway (In Portugal land is cheap in some places so one can dream of a runway too)
I have occasionally rented one of the two C182 G1000 from a big club at LFPT, including for the trip to Carcassonne earlier this year. The rest of the fleet consists of old C150/152, C172, C172RG, C172 rocket.
The C182s are the airplanes with the best availability of all because they cost more. On the trip to Carcassonne I was gone for 7 days and flew 06:45.
denopa wrote:
It’s true that French club pilots don’t feel the need to go to England. From their point of view, it’s expensive, complicated, and it’s unclear which of the food or the weather is worse. (I’ve spent the last 18 years in England and I think it’s the food).
I dont agree (and I know its all fun and games). I am neither French or (really) English but I love food. England has come a long way with its resteraunst. The best are every bit as good as the best in France. The worst, well they are just all equally bad. In the middle, in England there are too many chains and perhaps more variation than France, but I am not convinced there is much between them. 20 years ago I would have said France was way ahead. It has changed a lot, and the English have caught up. Whether they can go ahead does remain to be seen.
LeSving that’s a busy ramp for Namsos – the local club I think has switched to microlights with the old club Cherokee a ramp mummy (but not in your shot – it’s parked in the weeds East of the hangar).
What’s the next GA friendly field as you head north, Namsos being pretty north as it is.
A couple of observations on my part here.
Norway and Scandinavia per se are very popular destinations for a lot of GA pilots based around Germany, Switzerland and obviously France (as well as others in our area) because very often, the way South is closed or unlikely to be open weatherwise. I know of several clubs who do their fly outs almost only towards the North of the Alps, which also makes perfect sense. I would definitly not call either Scandinavian country “OVC004” as a rule, neither is the UK so.
Why are some countries more popular than others in GA? Basically, the less hassle and the less non standard procedures, the more popular they will be. Personally, I like flying VFR in Germany quite a bit, because there is plenty of VFR airspace, the airfields are uncomplicated to work with (once you pass customs) and generally, weather allows a lot more planability than going South from where I live and work. I’ve not flown in Skandinavia for more than a decade, but what I read from trip reports shows the same thing: relaxed, friendly atmosphere with lots of airfields. Every time I’ve been to Skandinavia even non-GA was a great time, with the highlights of going to Svalbard and the other trip to Karmoy island near Haugesund. Finally, I really love to think back to my time in Finland. Would I fly back there, you bet.
The UK is a bit of an enigma for many trying to figure out the rules there. For those who grew up (in aviation terms) there, they are obvious, for others, GAR, overhead join, finding places to do customs to go there is too much of a hassle considering the very limited time they have to actually do their hobby. Complex airspaces, lots of “A” airspace e.t.c. don’t help. And clearly, the weather does not help, but that is something which I think is pretty much the same everywhere north of the Alps. Yet, I still have quite some places there on my bucket list… I hope I can manage to do them before I retire from aviation.
France USED to be the place to fly to and still is in many ways, but for SWISS clubs and owners, it has become one of the countries where entry and leave have become difficult (and are getting worse) combined with other pilot reports which are very prominently talking of ramp checks and other hassle. Also, a lot of people shy away from the complex airspace structures. Yes, I know and many of them also do that in practice theye airspaces are no problem, only if there are places like Germany and Scandinavia, where you hear very few such reports, people tend to put their sour earned free time down the path of least resistance. The customs problem has gotten many Swiss pilots to simply ignore France altogether, even tough that is nonsense, there are still a lot of places which have customs, but the popular ones are gone. That will cause some reluctance to fly there. I understand from some clubs that they have transferred their training activities from France to other places these days because of this and the “FR only” saga, which keeps a LOT of German / English speakers out of there.
That France in fact (and once you are free to fly there post customs) is probably one of the most active GA countries in Europe is in paradox to this. I personally love France and I’d fly there if I had the time. When I was still with my old airplane, Avignon, Montpellier, Nice and Frejus (long time) were my favorite places to fly to. While Avignon and Montpellier are still very attractive, Nice does not accept small GA anymore and Frejus is gone altogether. But flying to France will need more preparation, PPR’s to organize and quite elaborate flight planning if you do take the airspace seriously, while I can plan a flight all the way to the North Sea without ever touching a critical airspace. And that is why the clubs do just that.
As for clubs here, I am probably the wrong guy to ask as I’ve not flown in a club for a while, but I can see their activities. Most of them do regular fly outs to different places, very few do long term rentals, almost all of them have minimum daily rents unless an airplane is badly underused, when gentlemen’s agreements can be negotiated for longer trips. The scene is quite active indeed with a lot of airfields with each of them having their own club who usually own the airfield as well. Most small airfields offer customs as well, which is very important in this country as we need customs basically on every flight other than to other Swiss airfields. I’d say, most Swiss airfields are very uncomplicated to fly to and out of, many however are PPR especcially for customs. Airspace is a problem here for some as well, it’s a small country and it is basically covered with class D airspace with varying ceilings.
As a general statement, I think in most countries you can see people who do venture abroad and others who stay put. Clearly the size of the country has to do with that. Flying in one’s own country usually means flying in one’s comfort zone and if that country has the size of France or Germany, many simply don’t see the use. France maybe has the largest variety and honestly, if you fly there, you can have everything from highest mountains to some of the nicest beaches, why bother to venture further, particularly if doing so means going to places where there are different rules, PPR, high landing fees e.t.c. People want to fly freely and not bother with all sorts of bureaucratic bullcrap. that and maybe the fact that many people are genuinly afraid of the unknown which they also don’t get adequately prepared for in their schools.
It is always difficult to figure out where nationalism starts and observation ends. I saw posts here which were mostly observations from the poster’s vantage point. We all do observe and take our, sometimes right, sometimes wrong, conclusion. This is why this place is so useful, we can exchange these views. And sometimes it is not soo bad to see how one’s country and it’s rules and regs are perceived elsewhere. Particularly for those who wish to advance GA and clean up some of the garbage told around. In the end, PIREPS are still the most useful motivators for this kind of thing and that is part of what we are here for.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
It is always difficult to figure out where nationalism starts and observation ends. I saw posts here which were mostly observations from the poster’s vantage point. We all do observe and take our, sometimes right, sometimes wrong, conclusion. This is why this place is so useful, we can exchange these views.
OK, let’s do that. As a non-French (European, as Aviathor 
) who does most of his flying in France, I hope I can dispel some of your reservations about flying in France without this being seen as nationalism. I’ve read your arguments on the Swiss forum (not only from you, but they seem to have stuck), I’ve tried in vain (obviously) to counter them with facts, but I’ll try once again. If you then still want to stick to your narrative of “France has become GA hell because of a conspiracy of socialists” , it is up to you.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Personally, I like flying VFR in Germany quite a bit, because there is plenty of VFR airspace, the airfields are uncomplicated to work with
I would rate VFR airspace accessibility in Germany and France about the same. In Germany, Frankfurt is hard to transit, the rest is usually possible. In France, Paris is a no-go, the rest usually possible. Restricted areas in France can look frightening, but you just need to call flight information and you can usually fly a straight line through it (with the exception of the AZBA routes). Airfields in Germany are usually more complicated than in France in my experience: More of them require a PPR and many of them have a local head honcho (“Flugleiter”) trying to impose his ways onto the traffic, giving you lectures over the radio as you approach, land and taxi. Many of them are “German only” as well. In France, only the bigger airports can be a bit “complicated to work with”, I find the rest very welcoming and accommodating.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
France […] has become one of the countries where entry and leave have become difficult (and are getting worse) combined with other pilot reports which are very prominently talking of ramp checks and other hassle.
From Switzerland, you only need customs, and that is still available in a lot of places. If it were really that bad, In the worst case you could also enter via Germany or Italy and then fly to France from there.
I have never had a ramp check (except one at my home field which took 3 minutes) in France. One such “report” about ramp checks with fines for “missing language proficiency” has been false, I had already demonstrated that on the respective thread. It would be unfair to take that as evidence for anything. Yes, in Biarritz the likelihood to get a ramp check if you turn up in an N-reg seems to approximate 100 %, but I don’t fly N-reg and I have never been to Biarritz (cf. “local head honchos” ;)).
What “other hassle” do you mean that is talked about in which “other pilot reports”?
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Also, a lot of people shy away from the complex airspace structures.
Once you know where to find the AZBA routes (or if you only fly on weekends, you don’t even need those), you can pretty much draw a straight line on the map and get full service on the way from friendly, English-proficient, real controllers who can directly clear you through anything that may be in your way. It doesn’t get any easier than that.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
I understand from some clubs that they have transferred their training activities from France to other places these days because of this and the “FR only” saga, which keeps a LOT of German / English speakers out of there.
Their choice, I hope they don’t instill this negativity in their clients, though. The “FR only” saga is just that, a saga. We’ve really beaten it to death on the Swiss forum and here, I won’t really write much more about it except that in practice, nothing has changed in the last 20 years about this (except maybe Toussus-le-Noble inventing their own local language proficiency requirements for French A/A).
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Nice does not accept small GA anymore
True, but you have Cannes as a reasonable alternative.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
But flying to France will need more preparation, PPR’s to organize and quite elaborate flight planning if you do take the airspace seriously, while I can plan a flight all the way to the North Sea without ever touching a critical airspace.
Of course you should take planning and airspaces seriously. My planning of flights traversing the whole of France is usually 15 minutes, including reading all the NOTAMs. With Skydemon it has become really simple. In Germany, you also need to plan at least around the Frankfurt airspace in my experience. This looks more like a deficiency in training if a PPL isn’t capable of planning a flight because of “airspace”.
About PPR, I can’t remember when was the last time that I asked for a PPR in France. Maybe never. I don’t know what you’re talking about. In Germany and Great Britain, yes, you’ll need PPR in many cases, but France? And if you mean customs, then that is mostly PNR and means just an e-mail with your details.
To be fair, you did mention multiple times that those concerns were probably exaggerated or even not true. But why do you keep repeating them? It seems like you decided to construct a negative image of aviation in France mostly based on hearsay. I hope this doesn’t keep anyone from flying there and seeing for themselves.
denopa wrote:
It’s true that French club pilots don’t feel the need to go to England.
Believe it or not, I do not think this is entirely true. I was member of one club at LFXU where they regularly did trips to England, although I admit it was to places on the SE coast like Shoreham which appears to be the French equivalent of L2K, or to the CI. It’s like dipping a toe in the UK but not wanting to take the full step 
From what I read on a French forum, this is also common among other French pilots and clubs.
Peter wrote:
Now, let’s say you have 3 keen members who take the SR22 away for 2-week trips → no SR22 for much of the summer!
Surprisingly enough the availability of planes is not too bad in the summer because people go on vacation and may be renting from clubs on Corsica or Southern France, but not at their “home” field. And what matters to the clubs is the number of hours flown by each aircraft so that they can keep the prices down.
The first example I have about 3 club aircraft flying to the North Cape, they were gone 9 days and flew 40 hours each. That’s quite a bit.
And I flew 06:45 in 7 days on a club aircraft to Avignon and Carcassonne earlier this year, instead of the required 2 hours daily or whatever it is. I had beforehand checked the typical reservation “occupancy” around that time, and hours flown by week that time of year so I knew that what I flew in one week was more than the airplane would have flown otherwise.
Peter wrote:
That club would not work well in the UK, especially the south east, because you would get a fair % of members wanting to take the stuff away for long trips.
The plane I rent is one of the planes in the group I rent. Availability is tricky in the summer if not planned, but (I think) the group works well and so far there haven’t been complaints that I know of.
If in the club everyone flies the SR22, then probably they should just buy another one.
At White Waltham, a couple years ago I’d take their Arrow II (G-WWAL, I’m sure some people here flew it too!) for 5 days or so and that wouldn’t be an issue.
Sure, It requires some advance planning, but in the end that boils down to financial priorities.
