boscomantico wrote:
No I was merely referring to radio privileges/licenses.
Can Germany really require German RTF licenses of foreign pilots…?
No, of course not, but they can, or better, have to, restrict access to certain airfields.
If you can’t speak German and the Flugleiter doesn’t speak English, how do you want to communicate?
Steve6443 wrote:
In addition to that, I also felt a little anxious when multiple aircraft were also on the frequency speaking french because if I need to use a crib sheet to plot where I am in the circuit, then by the same token I’m hardly likely to immediately grasp what a fluent speaker has said in order to plot where he is in the circuit.
I don’t understand why you need the radio in the first place. If there is a published circuit, you know where to expect other traffic. If there isn’t, fly a standard pattern. Don’t concentrate on maps or tablets, keep your eyes out. You know where traffic is likely to be. Get a PowerFLARM, if that put’s your mind at ease. Most planes in Central Europe radiate at least either Mode A/C or FLARM.
Steve6443 wrote:
Finally, I also don’t see the benefits of calling for PPR unless it’s shortly before arrival in case a different Flugleiter is working – the duty Flugleiter might not feel comfortable about using english.
Well how likely is that? If you feel uneasy about speaking English on a GE-only airfield, you just call and ask if there is anyone speaking English at the airfield upon your arrival. On those GE-only airfields, Flugleiter just don’t change shifts without talking to each other or at least leaving a note.
Steve6443 wrote:
And then there’s the Bezirksregierung…. They were parked up at my base yesterday, listening to the Radio…. If the AIP says DE/GE and someone uses english…. What happens if they’re bored and decide to investigate….
Then don’t talk at all. After all, the Bezierksrgierung (I guess we both know the same bunch of people) said for all they care the Flugleiter can paint the fence or sit on the lawn mower during his duty, as he is just mandated to initiate emergency procedures, should he witness an accident. And on many club-owned airfields this is the case.
Otherwise learn the few phrases in german. With en english language proficiency he is entitled to use them, if he pleases.
Just don’t overthink this, I don’t know of any GA-Pilot who got shot for English R/T in Germany.
Guys, to fly a n-reg in germany do I also need a german radio licence?
No, but you do need a FCC Radio Licence Form FCC605-FRG to use the radio in your N Reg anywhere outside the USA
boscomantico wrote:
If you can’t speak German and the Flugleiter doesn’t speak English, how do you want to communicate?
I was assuming the pilot did speak German, of course. My question was if you really do need a German RTF license. I don’t need an English RTF license to use English.
mh wrote:
I don’t understand why you need the radio in the first place. If there is a published circuit, you know where to expect other traffic. If there isn’t, fly a standard pattern. Don’t concentrate on maps or tablets, keep your eyes out. You know where traffic is likely to be. Get a PowerFLARM, if that put’s your mind at ease. Most planes in Central Europe radiate at least either Mode A/C or FLARM.
You might prefer to be fat, dumb and happy, flying NORDO in the circuit, but I don’t. I came extremely close to a mid air in the circuit last August and only received warnings of the proximity because my MRX was sending me alerts of an aircraft in the vicinity; I finally spotted him overtaking me on my left, climbing through my altitude as I was on final – separation was 0m vertical, max 30m horizontal – and that was only because I slammed the throttle closed when I saw him start to appear underneath my left leading edge, getting closer to stall speed than I’d like to in order to gain some spacing because I didn’t have a clue what he was doing….
mh wrote:
Well how likely is that? If you feel uneasy about speaking English on a GE-only airfield, you just call and ask if there is anyone speaking English at the airfield upon your arrival. On those GE-only airfields, Flugleiter just don’t change shifts without talking to each other or at least leaving a note.
Really? I’ve rang airfield to request the required PPR prior to departure in the morning and turned up at my destination, only to receive a bollocking for not having requested PPR; when I protested that I had rang and asked for / been granted PPR, I was told ‘Oh, wasn’t informed you were coming’…. Also, I’m based at a GE only airfield and I’ve seen how some handovers take place – you’re expecting some professionalism from people who do this as a hobby, not retired ATC staff….
Airborne_Again wrote:
I was assuming the pilot did speak German, of course. My question was if you really do need a German RTF license. I don’t need an English RTF license to use English.
That leads us to a conundrum I’ve faced. Nowadays, you require an English Language proficiency in order to (legally) use English over the air. So, what about if you wanted to radio in German – how do you get a German Language proficiency? I spoke to the LBA who said that all I need to do is send a declaration that my first 12 years on the planet I was raised speaking German (I wasn’t) or that my education was carried out in German (also negative) and they’d grant me a German proficiency Level 6.
I pointed out that neither was the case and that I needed to take the German Language Proficiency test, as I had done so for english, to at least gain a level 4 or 5. I was informed that they had yet to sort out the test, the questions and what the examiner was to look for….. that was 3 years ago…..
Either way – no language proficiency → not legal to use RT in that language. I was told by the LBA that because I had the BZF, it entitled me to use the radio in German, with or without German Language Proficiency (I do have english Level 6 entered though…)
Steve6443 wrote:
So, what about if you wanted to radio in German – how do you get a German Language proficiency?
The language proficiency requirements are in FCL.055:
Aeroplane, helicopter, powered-lift and airship pilots required to use the radio telephone shall not exercise the privileges of their licences and ratings unless they have a language proficiency endorsement on their licence in either English or the language used for radio communications involved in the flight.
Note that there is no requirement that you should hold a proficiency rating in the language actually used for radio communications as long as you have an English proficiency rating!
Here on EuroGA we have had extensive discussions about French-only airports. The eventual consensus was that — as individual countries have no right to impose additional requirements over the EASA regulations — you do not need a French language proficiency rating, but you do need to be able to speak French.
So my questions is again why a German language proficiency rating (or German RTF license) would be necessary to use a German-only airport, as long as you can speak German.
Steve6443 wrote:
You might prefer to be fat, dumb and happy, flying NORDO in the circuit, but I don’t.
Oh come on, don’t be silly. You HAVE to consider a plane with a non-working radio. And if yours fails, what you’re going to do? Not land? Besides, even on GE/EN airfields, what use is all your radioing when Schmittchen Schleicher doesn’t know a single word englisch and you could – at least to him – just stay silent anyway.
What value is the typical “D-EFGH, 5 minutes north of the field for landing”? Especially if you have more than one airfield on the frequency and noone knows who that guy is talking to.The radio becomes worth zilch if you use it like many non-English speaking Germans. I found that the majority of position reports is vastly untrue, either due to lack of awareness, lack of aptitude, lack of interest, lack of education or dur to a combination of all these. So you have to stick your head out and look, because in the vicinity of airfields, you KNOW where to expect traffic, and that includes the usual NO-NOs like diving into a pattern.
Please note, I am NOT teaching, nor advertising flying without correct position reports (or switched off transponders for that matter). But I don’t believe a second that if you are too afraid of just using English on the frequency, going NORDO at these (usually not very frequented) airfields is going to kill you insantly. I have flown quite some aircraft where the radio or headset field in mid-flight and I never remotely had an issue, neither in flight, nor after landing. (Just made the reassuring experience, that people DO monitor distress squawks and even a 7600 get’s people to phone your departure airfield and, if they know, your destination aerodrome).
Steve6443 wrote:
I came extremely close to a mid air in the circuit last August and only received warnings of the proximity because my MRX was sending me alerts of an aircraft in the vicinity;
Yeah I know that story. But he was an idiot not caring about procedures, and THAT was the problem.
Steve6443 wrote:
Also, I’m based at a GE only airfield and I’ve seen how some handovers take place – you’re expecting some professionalism from people who do this as a hobby, not retired ATC staff….
I fly in an aero club and every member does at least 4 Flugleiterdienste per year, I know something about how small airfields are operated, thank you. Anyway, he hadn’t any grounds to sue you, had he? Furthermore, one case of miscommunication doesn’t make a rule and my experience is hugely different in that respect.
Just don’t overthink that stuff.
Airborne_Again wrote:
So my questions is again why a German language proficiency rating (or German RTF license) would be necessary to use a German-only airport, as long as you can speak German.
It isn’t. The Bezirksregierung is puzzled, but knows about the wording in Part-FCL. Furthermore, the language proficiency is independent of the RTF license. So for instance a German pilot with a German RTF license in English but no English language proficiency can use the radio in English, but only if he is not flying. If he is flying, he is limited to German.
But: That will be sorted out in the very near future, Germany is currently integrating the RTF “license” in the normal theoretical and practical skill tests, like the rest of the world.
I think this is really funny. I hear all over the place how terrible France is with FR-only airfields, and Frenchmen should really learn English, and now I learn that Germans are just as terrible. And Germany hardly qualifies as Southern Europe, but maybe we need to revisit that now that Italy has been requalified as Africa.
I guess that only Brits do it right At least they have neither FR- or DE-only airfields. Just EN-only.
