Rwy20 wrote:
No, as I posted in #33 from the AIP, LF-P25 goes from SFC to 3800 ft, so the procedure takes you right through it at 3000 ft.Another thought crossed my mind regarding this P area: If you did a practice ILS 25R at LFPT (as VFR requesting to fly the procedure), then
OK. Sorry. I misread it.
However, you will not be able to do any practice approaches VFR on ILS25R because that would either take you into Villacoublay CTR, into LF-R275 (forbidden for VFR) or into Paris TMA (Class A)
Aviathor wrote:
Strictly speaking it does not because the floor of LF-P25 is 3800 feet and the procedure altitude is 3000 feet.
No, as I posted in #33 from the AIP, LF-P25 goes from SFC to 3800 ft, so the procedure takes you right through it at 3000 ft.
Another thought crossed my mind regarding this P area: If you did a practice ILS 25R at LFPT (as VFR requesting to fly the procedure), then you would be in breach of the P area, because the exception requires you to be IFR and to have received an ATC clearance. If you are VFR and got a clearance, you’d be illegal. I wonder how many instructors in LFPT have a pending 50.000 € fine and didn’t even know about it. 
Noe wrote:
The ILS 25R at Toussus LFPN takes you through LFP25 which is prohibited.
Strictly speaking it does not because the floor of LF-P25 is 3800 feet and the procedure altitude is 3000 feet.
It is funny because I did not even know of LF-P25. As far as I can remember it is not depicted on any of the IFR procedure charts. I have flown through the P-area many times during departures from LFPT to PTV which generally takes you (radar vectors) south to intercept and follow the POY R305 inbound to POY at 5000 feet, or during approach to LFPN ILS25R arriving from the West outbound on TSU R072 to about 11 NM (at 5000 feet?) and then right turn to intercept LLZ.
Incidentally I once received an erroneous clearance from ATC that instructed me to turn left to intercept the LLZ for 25R. And that would have taken me very close, if not into, LF-P23. I was puzzled but complied because I thought there was a good reason for it, and it was very busy on the frequency. When they saw me turn left they very quickly corrected the instruction. ATC are very careful to avoid that any aircraft enters LF-P23.
I think it would be because the zones P1 to P5, P8, P9, P13, P16, P19, P21, P25 to 31, P36, P37 and P40 are open to IFR with clearance, so they don’t depict them on IFR charts because they reckon that you will have a clearance from ATC if you fly this procedure.
Rwy20 wrote:
They didn’t even depict LF-P25 on the approach chart, contrary to LF-P23. The AIP defines it as:
I think It’s because they really don’t want you to go over Paris (LF-P23 is basically everything inside the “Peripherique”). The approach is (I think ) unusual, because the outbound track and inbound track are not far apart, so on the base turn you end up overshooting the inbound track. I think this is because they can’t have the outbound diverge by a greater amount, or you’ll end up near the Tour Eiffel!
I have only been flying along the coast from France to Sevilla and onwards. I have found that ATC was fine and would always answer. I just reported the VRP I just passed and the next one out, if they asked for positions. the VRP has Spanish names, so they recognise these points.
aart wrote:
Yes, use VOR’s but I would not use intersections if you can avoid it, they may start thinking you are IFR.
One note to this – IME Spanish ATC loves to have pos reports relative to VORs, such as ‘30 miles on the 295 radial of the XYZ VOR’. That always kept them happy.
If you fly the route along the coast my experience has been that you will generally not have a problem raising ATC at any point (with one exception, see below). I have flown there (very) often. So to cross the Barcelona area indeed stick to the VFR route over Sabadell. It’s very scenic anyway. Should weather preclude this you have a slight problem because they won’t give you a clearance right along the coast at any altitude. Pretty logical if you look at the the directions of the runways at LEBL basically parallel to the coast. So you need to head out over the sea and avoid the CTR. As you can see on your map, you’ll be able to stay closest to the coast if you stay at 1500 ft or below, and you’ll have a lot more upward room if you go further south. Reus: won’t be a problem crossing their CTR along the coast, stick to the VFR routing though. Between Reus and Castellon some P and R areas as you see on the chart. Further south do stay outside of the CTZ of Castellon, LECN (either North or South). Busy with parajumping and the local traffic pattern is right over the beach. Now you get to a point where you may get a problem with ATC reception.. Unless you are higher than about 2000-2500 ft you probably won’t get Valencia Appch until you are nearing their CTR. So either fly high of just live with the fact that you’ll be incomunicado for a bit. The last time I was in that area was a year ago, maybe things have gotten better… Same thing as Barcelona: follow the VFR routing, quite nice, overhead crossing. Same thing, weather may force you out over the sea.
An alternative to ‘hugging the coast’ would be to fly inland, staying west of all these controlled areas, very nice scenery! You can get up reasonably high and will have ATC coverage. The only drawback is that some areas are pretty rugged, so a forced landing poses a clear risk.
If you fly the route over the sea direct to either Ibiza or via Majorca you will have ATC coverage until roughly halfway while you are still with Barcelona frequencies. BeechBaby is quite right in saying that once they hand you over to Palma you will lose contact for quite a while on max VFR altitudes. Up to you to decide whether that is a problem. As to the traffic aspect of that decision I can guarantee you : won’t be any (or if so, it’s me and as long as you are a good boy and have your transponder on, I’ll see you ;)).
I partly disagree with Peter on reporting points. Yes, use VOR’s but I would not use intersections if you can avoid it, they may start thinking you are IFR. I would actually use the VRP’s when on the visual routings. I agree with Peter that you need to speak slowly and clearly, and please forget the full riddle that you use in the UK and France (type of aircraft, POB). Unless they start asking you for more data stick to ‘Valencia buenos dias, G-xxxx’ and after that ’G-xxxx, VFR from xxxx to Ibiza, present position aaa at bbbb ft, request cross your CTR along cccc at dddd ft. ’
They may ask you to change your squawk code several times along your route.
You are going to enjoy your little adventure!
Arne wrote:
They hoped for a more direct route through Barcelona TMA
Ah, OK, Barcelona and Madrid are the exceptions to what I wrote earlier. Didn’t think about these two, because living in Spain – as I did – you know this
However, as I also noted, there is a published VFR corridor through the Barcelona TMA, AFAIK none through Madrid.
172driver wrote:
Where they flying Microlights?No, a very standard C172 XP. They hoped for a more direct route through Barcelona TMA, but the detour was not so bad, it’s quite scenic. They were less enthusiastic about being stuck below 1000ft to cross between the islands. Tower ATC in the islands was very helpful, APP quite the opposite. I don’t know the time of day, maybe they just picked rush hour.
