Sanity check on ownership costs

I would very much like to that itemised. I bet it was a shagged old dog, neglected for years beforehand and probably neglected afterwards

Au contraire. There were some nasty surprises following a crap pre-purchase which revealed nothing and these cost us just south of 30k € , but 12000€ pa covered insurance, heated hangar, camo, radio fees, everything except fuel and hourly related maintenance.

Definately not neglected.

Looks like the misunderstanding was that he thought that it was 12000 to buy it.

Hangarage in the UK climate is cost neutral, you pay the Hangarage or you pay for corrosion removal, Avionic snags, re-painitng and upholstery when the aircraft gets a water leak.

You just have to make sure you are getting the Hangarage you are paying for, I don’t consider having my aircraft left outside in the rain all day because it happened to be in front of another aircraft that had to come out to be Hangarage.

Also NEVER hangar in your maintenance company, for obvious reasons.

I know some people have to (certain outfits at e.g. Biggin Hill demand it) but the outfit has you over a barrel. I managed to "de-appoint) my hangar outfit from doing my maint in 2005; they were not too sorry since they made a packet on turboprops. But as A&C says, my plane was still left outdoors a lot.

In much of the UK and probably elsewhere, property owners rule the day….

It’s been beaten to death already, but still:

I would never want to have a personal aircraft (pride and joy) parked outside permanently. I fully detest that this can be cost neutral. It’s not just the paint…

• interior trim going bad from the sunshine and heat (window cover help just a little)
• avionics will play havoc for sure
• good paintjobs are ~15000€ in Europe
• generally much more corrosion will take place, since the airframe will be wet/damp a out 80% of the time
• windows, especially windshields are expensive
• rubber door seals will go bad quickly
• risk of rain damage
• essentially can’t fly in winter (ice and snow)
• risk of hail
• risk of wind damage, also minor wind damage

Also, it’s a matter of pride and joy. With the aircraft parked outside, it will essentially always look like a mess (more or less), both in terms of dirt as well scratches on the paint and on the plexi. With a hangared airplane, it will always look nore or less pristine. Aircraft parked outside will be a sauna in summer. Smells will develop. And so on.

Hi,

it hugely depends on the airframe and on what you need to achieve.

From what you write in your message I take it you are looking for a VFR PA28/C172 e.t.c. type of plane, that is VFR avionics, fixed pitch prop and fixed gear.

Insurance ca. €1500 pa

Depends on: Do you take out what is required by law only? How many pilots with how much experience?
I am currently paying around € 2500 for the legally required insurance (third party, passenger, e.t.c, whereby I have increased the cover over the minimum of 5 Million to 10 Million), plus another € 2500 for hull insurance 120k CHF. That is for unlimited number of VFR pilots.

Hanger ca. €2000 pa

Parking fee outside at ZRH is around that. Hangar or open parking fees, check your local airport. No point in averaging figures, all it takes is a look at the web or a talk to the person in charge. For your airport, the Gebührenverordnung is here but it sais “Auf Anfrage” for hangaring and parking on a rental basis.

Annual ca. €3000 pa
The minimum maintenance you need to do per year is one 100 hour check, if you fly 50 hours or less, otherwise one 50 hour and one 100 hour, which you can (should if possible) combine with the annual. For a PA28/C172/AA5 type of fixed gear/prop plane this might work at €3000 if there is nothing to fix, € 4000 if its a 50 and 100 hour check. Otherwise, I’d budget €5000/6000 and keep the rest as reserve.

Also, it is rare that annuals are the only thing to do. I’d plan another €2000 as reserve.

Licences ca. €500 pa (Radio Licence, subscription Skydemon etc.)
Again, check locally. No point in giving you Swiss figures if you are in Germany. My average (admin, radio, jepview VFR, Garmin update VFR (1-2 times a year) was around 700 CHF.

Hourly Costs
AVGAS ca. €80 (30 litres per hour @ €2.75)
30 liters as average may be on the tight side. An O320 may be there, O360 better calculate with 40.

Engine Fund ca €10
Calculated how? An engine revision for an O360 with de-install/install will set you back around €25-30k. So you need to take the remaining hours to TBO (any extension is bonus) and divide the price by them. That is what you need for your Engine fund. Don’t forget that the prop also has to be done from time to time, even though for a fixed pitch that is not a big cost factor. Obviously, you can operate beyond TBO on private ops.
I know people who do have an engine fund, others who do not and either sell the plane when it has 200 hours left or simply pay out of the pocket. Generally, it is not a bad idea having a reserve somewhere which covers a full engine revision at any time. If your finances allow that, forget the engine fund.

Other considerations:
Avionic: If you buy a stock VFR plane with just enough to fly legally, sooner or later you will need to upgrade. Better to get something which (VFR) at least has Mode S as well as 8.33 already installed. GPS e.t.c for VFR is not really important to be panel mounted, usually handheld devices (maybe with a panel mount) are more economical and have better VFR use. If you need to upgrade, cost may very quickly exceed hull value. So whatever useable avionic is there is a bonus.

With Cessnas: If on D-Reg the SID inspections are a huge factor. Those without are cheap to buy but a financial time bomb. Those who have it are more expensive.

What is your budget? If you have a set budget, I recommend trying to obtain your plane for 1/2 to 2/3rd that price and keep the rest of your budget to make it “yours”, that is to do upgrades you want to do or have to do and keep some reserves.

You may well also think out of the box. UL e.t.c is one way if that suits you. Considering other types which go out of the “fixed gear/Prop” range may be a better thing to do if you can get them for the same price and can afford the slight increase in maintenance, usually they are of a much better “travel” value. If you just want to fly around the countryside, that is no issue, the moment you want to really travel, a faster plane can be cheaper per distance than a slower one, particularly if you get it for the same money. Read up on all the available types, get pireps and figures. You can’t collect too much data, but after a while you’ll know pretty well what each plane can do. If fixed pitch/gear is the thing, consider the AA5 series. They are considerably faster than similar engined planes of the Cessna/Piper series. Also Arrow II/III and Vintage Mooneys are often in the pricerange of PA28/C172 but offer a lot more for someone who wants to travel without too much cost penalty.

I never regretted going into ownership, even if it has had its moments :). If you have questions, fire away.

Can that be right? Such a difference… ???

It is usually more. When you get an old C-172 or similar, you will have to pay an additional 30-40k just to fix it so it is OK enough you don’t have to use 10-15k each year in maintenance.

Insurance

When I first bought the aircraft (May 2012) the insurance was £3500 for 2 named pilots, the second year reduced to £2500 due to no claims made. That’s based on a £135,000 hull value, I have since added the 40k avionics refit but this didn’t make much of a difference to the premium, although it may have been further discounted this year if I hadn’t added this risk.

For a non-complex aircraft I think you will get a much cheaper quote.

I think for a simple aircraft like a PA28, your revised Annual cost is now a sensible average. Some years you would pay less, others more.

Are you including the purchase costs in your break-even calculations?